Changed oil and found this in the bottom of filter cap

Rockster · 03-27-2011, 11:54 AM

So I changed my oil for the first time on this car and found fine bits of metal settled at the bottom of the filter cap.

Is this normal?
1997 986 with 38k miles

Thanks for looking guys!

drewbz818 · 03-27-2011, 12:42 PM

Im new to boxster, but have been doing lots of reading, looks like could be ims bearing. You might want not to drive it and get it checked out asap. If bearing fails will destroy your motor.
Look at lnengineeing.com/ims.html

randy_k · randy_k's Garage

How many miles has it gone since that last oil change? If you know? If you stick a magnet in there does any of it stick. Looks more like a mixture of fluids to me. Just guessing here.

JFP in PA · 03-27-2011, 02:34 PM

Metal in the oil or filter is not normal, particularly not in this quantity. I would also put a magnet near it to see if it is ferrous, but even if it is not, that is a lot of alloy and should be looked at further.

Rockster · 03-27-2011, 05:48 PM

thanks for the reply guys.

The picture makes it look a lot worst then it is.
The fine bits are very small and when I rub my fingers together I can't "feel" them.
It just feels like oil between my finger tips.(If that makes any sense)

What and where would I start looking at to find out more?
The car starts and runs great!
No weird noises and plenty of power.
Am I just screwed for getting a Boxster?
Thanks again for the input guys

randy_k · randy_k's Garage

Any metal in there, no matter how small is not a good thing. Screwed, not necessarily. One thing you can try. Is to take that oil in the old filter and pour it in a regular paper paint filter like Lowe's or Home Depot has. While you there. Pick up a can of denatured alcohol. Poor the oil in the filter then pour the alcohol over it. You'll get a better idea of what's in there. I'd also change the oil again. The sheen, gooky look, looks allot like an oil slick like you would see in water. Better off changing it again for a few bucks, than loosing an engine.

Garrytw · Garrytw's Garage

You might want to look at this post.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/boxster-cayman-forum/599558-another-ims-takes-its-toll-04-box-s.html
Looks like the same mess in the filter cover, but hope not

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

I would drop the sump of the engine if you're concerned and are looking for more. If the sump is clean, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. The oil pickup is at the bottom of the sump, so typically, you will find more debris down there.

-Wayne

Rockster · 03-27-2011, 10:41 PM

Thanks for the great info everybody.

I forgot to mention I put Seafoam into the oil before I changed it, if that changes anything IDK.

Man... I just put in 10 qts of Castro Edge in there. 5w-30

I'll have a look at the sump and see what I have going on. Finger's crossed!
I'll keep everyone updated.
Thanks again for the help and advice!

m.o.desaster · 03-28-2011, 02:49 AM

Hi!
5w-30 is just the WRONG Oil! I met lots of Boxster owners who put that -30 oils in their machines, but it is just wrong!!! You need to use -40 oils. And oils, that are on the Porsche A40 List for that machines. Like Mobil Super 3000 5w-40 with Porsche A40 specs.
You can use 0w-40 also. But I recommend 5w-40, because its better for the whole engine (not for saving fuel, btw :-) ).
The Engine is just getting too hot for any -30 Oils...

mikefocke · 03-28-2011, 09:58 AM

The standard suggestion when metal flakes are found it to determine what metal they are made of by using a magnet. If the magnet picks the flakes up (iron) you have a bearing problem. Don't even start the engine but get it to an engine specialist.

Rockster · 03-28-2011, 07:17 PM

Well I placed a magnet near the "metal" flakes and nothing is sticking to it.
Hope that's good news.
I'll start removing my sump and investigate further.
Thanks everyone.

NOTASIX · 03-28-2011, 07:45 PM

That material is far from normal, especially in those amounts. That looks like wear metal from main bearings to me.

The bad part is most used oil analysis won't detect it because the particles are too large, if it can be seen with the naked eye our experience has been that the UOA won't detect it.

I'd drop that sump ASAP and get the engine in the hands of someone that understands the M96.

Schumi · 03-28-2011, 11:26 PM

I would scrape the particles and oil onto a coffee filter-like material and let it sit out to absorb all the oil, leaving only the particles behind. Do this several time till you get that metallic powder completely dry of oil. Then try and rub a magnet on them and see if the particles stick.

If not, it's aluminum, and could be from any number of parts in the engine, and may or may not be serious.

If it is steel, it is a bearing problem, and could be very serious.

But pulling the sump pan and looking for debris there is a good next move- it's not hard to do and could easily tell you if you have a serious problem (large metal chunks)... or if it is perfectly clean, may warrant an oil change and re-check.

NOTASIX · 03-29-2011, 05:03 AM

This material will be very slightly ferrous, only if it is from the main bearings. The main and rod bearings in the m96 engine are a Tri-metal design and incorporate tin, lead and aluminum, but the main bearings are also steel backed. This could lead to some of the material being slightly attracted to a magnet.

The only components within the M96 engine that will shed material of this color are the main and rod bearings. We see this frequently.

mikefocke · 03-29-2011, 07:28 AM

But the LN web site says that one of the reasons for using a magnetic drain plug is to detect the " ferrous foreign object debris generated by a failing IMS bearing".

So Jake are you saying the color of these rules them out as being IMS related even if the magnet test says they are ferrous?

NOTASIX · 03-29-2011, 07:48 AM

Mike,
I have never witnessed that color material come from an IMS bearing. None of the material in the IMS is Copper or Bronze, it is all high grade steel.

The copper based material is slightly ferrous because it is used in a mixed composition in the main and rod bearings with steel. Due to this a mag drain plug will collect this material in large enough amounts to be beneficial. The mag drain plug has a 23# rare earth magnet, it will collect most anything that has any bit of ferrous composition.

You'll like whet my current development is alot. We are testing it now.

Rockster · 03-29-2011, 10:14 AM

Thanks for the info Notasix.

I feel a little better now that it might not be the IMS.
I'm still dropping the sump to make sure and so I can sleep at night...

NOTASIX · 03-29-2011, 10:27 AM

This is WORSE than the IMS if it is the rod or main bearings. No retrofit possibilities for this. When these bearings begin to wear the tolerances open up and oil pressure drops. The remedy requires complete engine disassembly.

Overheated oil routinely causes this type of wear, along with losses of pressure.
Hopefully yours has not progressed as far as these pictures illustrate. This engine lost the #1 main bearing and #4 rod bearing, but it still ran.

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

Yes, that is ugly stuff. One way to check to see if your engine is wearing is to create a log of oil pressure and monitor it over time. This is what they do in industrial applications, but it's a bit difficult to do it on your car. I have some tips here in my article from my Engine Rebuild Book: Pelican Technical Article: Time to Rebuild? - Part I

I would say if your bearings are wearing, then that indeed would be from some issue with the oil, as Jake said. Something like oil breakdown, dirty or contaminated oil, or an oil supply problem within the engine. None of those are good.

-Wayne