Roadies Question on Lightweight Wheels

slow&rusty · 06-15-2019, 06:32 AM

I am very happy with my Cannondale Supersix Hi-Mod but it was originally equipped with Aluminum wheels and steel thin blade spokes, I'm not sure what lightweight options are available?

Thoughts?

David · David's Garage

Aluminum wheels are not necessarily heavier than carbon and many times are lighter if the carbon wheels are very deep. The current crop of carbon Bontrager wheels seem to have really good balance of weight, aero performance, width, and cost.

island911 · 06-15-2019, 08:00 AM

I would expect the carbon to be stiffer - much stiffer- from both materials and geometry.

KFC911 · 06-15-2019, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slow&rusty

....

Thoughts?

When I wuz a roadie....I had to walk....my buddies are cheap

Hook up with a 1st rate outfit like BHT&TM

!

mepstein · 06-15-2019, 08:03 AM

Stiffness is more a function of wheel build, number of spokes and rim shape. High performance tires and tubes will give you the most bang for your buck.

herr_oberst · 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mepstein

High performance tires and tubes will give you the most bang for your buck.

^ Yep. Start there.

There's ton's of wheel options available. (Grams of wheel options?) What are you trying to improve?

island911 · 06-15-2019, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mepstein

Stiffness is more a function of wheel build, number of spokes and rim shape. ....

Yes. I used engineer-speak shorthand "geometry." Perhaps that was confusing; but now you know.

That is, with the material CF vs Alum, the density affects the geometry (the cross section) much in the same way aluminum will be thicker/taller x-sec, and therefore stiffer than the same weight version in steel. /beam theory.

John Rogers · 06-15-2019, 08:55 AM

You didn't mention what the bike is used for, I.E. fun rides, long road racer, short criteriums or ?????. I agree with better tires as now many don't get flats like they did when I was racing in the 70's and 80's which can cost lots of $$$$ or cost you a race. The rotating mass is what you worry about if racing a criterium due to being able to accelerate slightly quicker but if racing over rough roads then the rims can dent or get thrown out of alignment.

Schrup · Schrup's Garage

I would look at a couple of local shops. They can usually build nice wheelsets at a competitive price. Support your LBS or they'll start closing. My two favorites closed last year.

look 171 · 06-15-2019, 10:20 AM

Wanna to save weight? Get a new bike. No seriously, by the time you ditch a pound you are spending big bucks and not sure if that will help with performance, maybe just a tad bit (if that much?)

Get new:
Carbon bars
New crank
Cassette
Saddle, but that will hurt your ass in those long rides
New wheels.
And if you really feel like emptying that bank account, get those uber light weight brake calipers.

Oh, and ditch that big screen TV between the brake levers.

You might get closes to a pound?

What are you looking to do, just cut weight?

mepstein · 06-15-2019, 06:27 PM

I ran a bike shop for 6 years and have raced for 30. If you want to see what a lighter, high performance set of wheels will feel like, ask your high performance LBS (local bike shop) to fit a set to your bike to try out. Just like a car, tires make the most difference but wheels are rotating weight and also can make an aero difference at higher speeds. Just dropping weight on a bike makes very little difference since it ends up being such a small percentage when you add in the riders weight. Unless you are a big, strong rider, stiffness has very little to do with performance. The difference between flexible wheels and frames and stiff ones is measured (at most) in millimeters and is mostly hype by the bike industry to help sell new bikes.

greglepore · 06-16-2019, 03:29 AM

Lightweight with a capital L is a well known very high end brand with integral carbon spokes. They feel like nothing else.
In terms of performance, light wheels are very responsive but don't hold speed as well. They're useful up hill but of 0 benefit on the flats. Aero wheels (think 30-50mm, whether alloy like Boyd's or carbon) on the other hand do provide a benefit. But if you're not racing or trying to hang on to a group,does it matter? I have tons of go fast stuff but its mostly pointless now as I've given up on groups due to the inability of most to ride like cyclists as opposed to aggro beginners.

John Rogers · 06-16-2019, 03:56 AM

Here's a thought......could you loose maybe 10 or 15 pounds? When I was racing, that is what I was always told, if YOU have excess weight, it is cheaper to loose it than spend lots of $$$$ on a titanium seat post!

Captain Ahab Jr · Captain Ahab Jr's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Rogers

Here's a thought......could you loose maybe 10 or 15 pounds? When I was racing, that is what I was always told, if YOU have excess weight, it is cheaper to loose it than spend lots of $$$$ on a titanium seat post!

Weight Wennies forum is full of overweight, middle aged dudes spending a fortune on saving grams

slow&rusty · 06-16-2019, 05:40 AM

Geez tough crowd.

First of all, I'm not trying to spend $1000 to save 100grams, just looking at wheel options and wheel technology as I am not really sure what the current wheel trend is.

At 6'1" and 180lbs, I don't have 10-15 lbs to loose!

David · David's Garage

I'm one of those guys who thought deep carbon wheels were a waste off money for a non-racer just out riding for fun but when 9 out of 10 riders in your fast group have them you start to wonder. I just bought another set of aluminum wheels a few months ago because I still wasn't convinced but since then I've been questioning my decision especially after talking to fellow riders about the benefit of aero wheels.

I bought a set of Bontrager Paradigm Elite TLR wheels for $800 (minus my 15% club discount at my LBS). I chose them for their 1,490 gram weight, 19.5 mm inner width and the reasonable price. I'm running 25mm and sometimes 28mm tires so I prefer a wider width rim.

In carbon wheels the only wide rim brakes wheels I've found are the new Bontrager Aeolus XXX wheels with 21mm inner width and at $2,400 they're cheaper than most other top line carbon wheels.

greglepore · 06-16-2019, 07:37 AM

David-yes, in a group dynamic they matter. Particularly when others have them. Another benefit to deep rims is that they're stiffer, and stay true much longer. Just as a data point, the a33 and Boyd's alloy rims weigh about the same or less than an equivalent carbon rim, and test just as well in the tunnel as 303's and as good as 404's except at wide yaw. And they're 21mm internal. I like them as much as various 50mm carbon wheels, Lightweights excluded.

herr_oberst · 06-16-2019, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slow&rusty

.......just looking at wheel options and wheel technology as I am not really sure what the current wheel trend is.

What are you trying to fix or achieve with a new wheelset? Like everything else, the market has gone granular, so you have lots and lots of choices. First and foremost the trend is towards wider tires, 28 is becoming the norm.

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by slow&rusty

I am very happy with my Cannondale Supersix Hi-Mod but it was originally equipped with Aluminum wheels and steel thin blade spokes, I'm not sure what lightweight options are available?

Thoughts?

I have carbon wheels on my Cannondale, actually carbon everything except the crank and Ti gears
on another bike mostly all Ti, I have some high end Al wheels

either wheel set is a nice step up from the run of the mill wheels that are the usual for oe.

The carbon are far stronger is in addition to being far lighter, I've hit stuff that would have destroyed an al wheel w/ no damage except tire and inner tube replacement.

Besides cost the only negative is that the carbon are also deep aero design that really catch any sidewinds, that combined w/ the very light weight of the bike itself makes for some drama at times. The bike feels like its getting blown out from underneath me, it doesn't but it sure is exciting when at speed.

mepstein · 06-16-2019, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greglepore

David-yes, in a group dynamic they matter. Particularly when others have them. Another benefit to deep rims is that they're stiffer, and stay true much longer. Just as a data point, the a33 and Boyd's alloy rims weigh about the same or less than an equivalent carbon rim, and test just as well in the tunnel as 303's and as good as 404's except at wide yaw. And they're 21mm internal. I like them as much as various 50mm carbon wheels, Lightweights excluded.

Aero wheels matter the least in a group dynamic. You save 20-40% of aero, drafting behind a rider vs 1-3% with aero wheels. So the little aero advantage of wheels in a 10 rider group is only helping you 10% of the time compared to the 90% when you are drafting. It mostly comes into play at higher speeds during an individual time trial.

Of course when you are racing to win, you want every advantage you can get, so the 1-3% is worth it.

Carbon rims offer very little stiffness advantage, don't stay true any longer than aluminum wheels and don't hold up to impacts much better. I've built up hundreds of wheels and raced and sold many brands. The industry loves carbon wheels because they are expensive and make them more money. The actual advantages are worth it for racing but make very little difference for riding. Think about it, if they help you save two minutes on your 2 1/2 hour, 40 mile ride, is that important to you.