Nautical DUI Emphasis Patrol

[Jeff Higgins]

This has been a very enlightening discussion - thanks, everyone. I guess the bottom line for me is that I am quite surprised by all of this. Under any other circumstances, in any other place, we, as American citizens, enjoy an almost absolute right to privacy, to be "secure in our personal affects". Everywhere but on the water. Apparently, when on the water, we have no rights whatsoever. I find that quite remarkable.

[Crowbob]

The St. Mary’s river separates the US from Canadia but connects Lake Huron to Lake Superior at the eastern end of the Upper Peninsula.

Talk about overlapping jusridictions and variety of watercraft!

Thousand-foot freighters to kayaks, Yanks and Canucks, border patrol, ICE, DNR, CG, etc. You comply or you go to jayel.

[Wetwork]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

This has been a very enlightening discussion - thanks, everyone. I guess the bottom line for me is that I am quite surprised by all of this. Under any other circumstances, in any other place, we, as American citizens, enjoy an almost absolute right to privacy, to be "secure in our personal affects". Everywhere but on the water. Apparently, when on the water, we have no rights whatsoever. I find that quite remarkable.

Pretty much, but there are work around's. Basically, depending on the situation, a Coastie can only "inspect" a "man-sized" space...think human stow-away (that's below decks or whatever). If your a jerk I could figure a "stow-away" could fit in lots of places. And stuff in "plain-view", might lead me to a probable cause deal. I couldn't go through your cabinets, or even look in your cooler unless....you have something related to a possible, required, expired safety device. Or I found something to give me probable cause.

Hands down, the hardest part for everyone I boarded is they had to hand over their firearms. It was simply a safety issue, it was always returned at the end of the boarding, or stowed down below in "a spot". Basically it was I hide your gun til I leave so you don't shoot me if I give you a ticket LOL. It's the first thing you ask as a Boarding Officer..."Without reaching for, or touching do you have any firearms on board?"

All of the legal stuff took me back too, going through years of LE training. Had zero idea the CG was that special. As you age you see the sense in it. Pretty impossible to get a search warrant at 0200, 400 nautical miles off shore bouncing around in ten foot sea's. But all and all historically the CG has had very little problems with all this. Remember our other hat is Lifesavers...-WW

[tevake]

Here is a view from a private boat opperator and long time live aboard, and small commercial boat opperator.

About 20 / 25 years ago when the role of the C G changed from protect and perserve vessels and Mariners. To more of save lives and enforce laws, against drug and people trafficking. Their interaction with civilian boaters also changed significantly.

They will now stand by as a vessel in trouble gets deeper into trouble to the point that the boaters are in dire peril. Then step in to save the well being of the people aboard.

Not getting involved to assist or save the vessel at the point that it is possible to do so.
Liability issues they say.

Also "safety boardings". are now conducted by boarding parties of usually at least three members, all armed, one usually carrying an AR style rifle in hand. These are routinely done at sea in conditions that don't lend themselves to easyly coming alongside for the boarding and removal of their personal. The resulting damage to the civilian vessel is your problem.

A lot like the change in the dynamic between our citizens and LEO, since protect and serve went away. A similar change in the boating public and the C G has resulted from their changing role.

Clearly there are good reasons for C G and Law enforcement to take steps to protect themselves. But these steps don't lend themselves to comfortable interactions with normal law abiding folks as a rule.

Cheers Richard

[Wetwork]

Originally Posted by tevake

Here is a view from a private boat opperator and long time live aboard, and small commercial boat opperator.

About 20 / 25 years ago when the role of the C G changed from protect and perserve vessels and Mariners. To more of save lives and enforce laws, against drug and people trafficking. Their interaction with civilian boaters also changed significantly.

They will now stand by as a vessel in trouble gets deeper into trouble to the point that the boaters are in dire peril. Then step in to save the well being of the people aboard.

Not getting involved to assist or save the vessel at the point that it is possible to do so.
Liability issues they say.

Also "safety boardings". are now conducted by boarding parties of usually at least three members, all armed, one usually carrying an AR style rifle in hand. These are routinely done at sea in conditions that don't lend themselves to easyly coming alongside for the boarding and removal of their personal. The resulting damage to the civilian vessel is your problem.

A lot like the change in the dynamic between our citizens and LEO, since protect and serve went away. A similar change in the boating public and the C G has resulted from their changing role.

Clearly there are good reasons for C G and Law enforcement to take steps to protect themselves. But these steps don't lend themselves to comfortable interactions with normal law abiding folks as a rule.

Cheers Richard

Unfortunately a lot of what you mention is true. I have some ideas why and most of it came down to who the current Commandant was. In the beginning of the drug wars our boss was big on spec ops stuff, so we leaned that way. Had a several teams in the jungles of Bolivia running rivers there and taking down cocaine farms. This was late 80's early 90's and was pretty covert. Seriously who'd thunk there were Coastie's in jungle camo, running around blowing up stuff in S. America? Google it. CG specialists operations in Bolivia. It got shut down pretty quick with the next Presidential election.

The rescue stuff (SAR) that depends on location. In the PNW there isn't really any local salvage companies, its just too dangerous so it's the CG or nobody. That's why 90% of the Surfman are stationed there. In locations where there is commercial salvage available like Sea Tow, we have to step back. Not for liability but because we would be taking money from a local business. Same reason the State Police won't tow your car out of the ditch.

Whoever is the current Commandant pretty much follows what Congress (the funding) wants. So we generally spend those couple of years running the direction they want. I've went through big pollution years, were all we did was environmental stuff, tactical years were the push was high speed low drag drug and immigration pushes. With all the middle east issues we are on a war footing all the time with cutters in the Gulf around the clock. So we got a lot of hats.

The SAR stuff was always there but if there was commercial guys available we could only stand by. Any time its life and death we launch. If its just a boat broke down or becalmed we don't do anything but monitor in case it gets bad.-WW

[bmcuscgr94]

Originally Posted by Wetwork

Unfortunately a lot of what you mention is true. I have some ideas why and most of it came down to who the current Commandant was. In the beginning of the drug wars our boss was big on spec ops stuff, so we leaned that way. Had a several teams in the jungles of Bolivia running rivers there and taking down cocaine farms. This was late 80's early 90's and was pretty covert. Seriously who'd thunk there were Coastie's in jungle camo, running around blowing up stuff in S. America? Google it. CG specialists operations in Bolivia. It got shut down pretty quick with the next Presidential election.

The rescue stuff (SAR) that depends on location. In the PNW there isn't really any local salvage companies, its just too dangerous so it's the CG or nobody. That's why 90% of the Surfman are stationed there. In locations where there is commercial salvage available like Sea Tow, we have to step back. Not for liability but because we would be taking money from a local business. Same reason the State Police won't tow your car out of the ditch.

Whoever is the current Commandant pretty much follows what Congress (the funding) wants. So we generally spend those couple of years running the direction they want. I've went through big pollution years, were all we did was environmental stuff, tactical years were the push was high speed low drag drug and immigration pushes. With all the middle east issues we are on a war footing all the time with cutters in the Gulf around the clock. So we got a lot of hats.

The SAR stuff was always there but if there was commercial guys available we could only stand by. Any time its life and death we launch. If its just a boat broke down or becalmed we don't do anything but monitor in case it gets bad.-WW

I think you summed it up pretty well IMHO.

I enlisted in 74 and it was boating safety and search and rescue. When I retired in 97 is was drug interdiction, fisheries regulations and environmental. Most of my time was reserves and after Gulf War 1 the CG decided that reserve structure didn't fit their needs. My unit of over 100 dropped to about 20 of us left to augment the regular units. My last six years were spent working on a Point Class cutter.

The CG's ability to board and inspect on the water pretty much at-will surprises a lot of boaters.

[tevake]

Thanks for mentioning the international footprint of the C G. In Central / south America and the Middle East.
President Trump also pointed out some of the contributions made by the C G around the world in his 4th of July speech.

I hadnt been aware of that part of their mission, had thought they were a domestic branch of service. Good to know.
As an active boater most of my life ( I'm 70 yo now). I'm not surprised by boardings at will. But am impressed by the change in approach and attitude in those encounters of more recent times.
I guess it's a result of some of the dangerous encounters with serious criminal types that get reported occasionally, that has caused this change in SOP when dealing with the public.

Once an interaction with the boating public s started as a military or swat style action, it's hard to turn it around to being a boater safety/ educational type of interaction, this being the former M O of the C G.

A sad sign of our times I guess.

Cheers Richard

[Seahawk]

Great thread - I learned a bunch.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Great thread - I learned a bunch.

Ditto. Boating on an inland lake is a lot different than the ocean, and rightfully so.

[tevake]

After a lifetime of coastal ocean and off shore sailing in the big blue pacific,
I'm now in the process of getting a new to me 22' sailboat equipped and ready to do some sailing and gunkholeing in nearby lakes, rivers and inter coastal waterways, here in the south East states.
And will admit to being a little concerned at dealing with the challenges involved.

Lots have been mentioned here already, unpredictable boaters coming from all directions at what ever speeds, different AIDS to navigation, lots of mixed traffic, and very poor visibility in murky waters with shoals all around to get hung up on. Not to mention the mixed bag of local , state, and federal laws and enforcement, fishing lic. For each state, fresh and saltwater.

Oh my, makes sailing in the middle of the clear uncrowded pacific seem relaxing and simple. I guess it's all what you are used to.

This thread has brought to light very interesting info about the wide range of missions carried out by the Coast Guard. Thanks for sharing that.

Cheers Richard

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Great thread - I learned a bunch.

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Ditto. Boating on an inland lake is a lot different than the ocean, and rightfully so.

Agreed, on both counts. Great information form our Coast Guard - and thanks, guys, for your service. Very interesting to learn what it is you guys really do.

So, what about our inland waterways? Not much human trafficking or drug running going on on your typical lake whereupon folks are waterskiing, jet boating, and the like. Every county sheriff or municipal cop with a boat can stop any boater they like, with absolutely no probably cause, and board that boat, right? And everyone seems to be o.k. with that?

What if the fire marshal just drove around and randomly knocked on doors, demanding entry to check for alarms and extinguishers? What if cops did the same thing, just randomly checking your homes for illegal activity, randomly pulling you over to check your seat belts and air bags? No one would put up with that.

This strikes me as a rather remarkable difference.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

What if the fire marshal just drove around and randomly knocked on doors, demanding entry to check for alarms and extinguishers? What if cops did the same thing, just randomly checking your homes for illegal activity, randomly pulling you over to check your seat belts and air bags? No one would put up with that.

This strikes me as a rather remarkable difference.

Here in Maryland, the NRP (What We Do) and other State Agencies have wide ranging "no knock" authority on hunting blinds, deer stands, hunters in general on private property.

I only allow a few people to hunt my farm and only after they prove to me they know the law(s), which can be confusing, since I can be liable for their mistakes.

Click on the "Report a Violation" tab.

I get it, but the second time an NPR pulled up to my house after coming on my property without my permission (he didn't need it) to "investigate" folks I allowed on the farm to hunt, enough was enough.

[GH85Carrera]

I have one question for the folks that have sailed outside the US waters. I presume other countries have the equivalent of the cost guard for their countries. Do all the "coast guard like" entities have the same powers to board and inspect with no warrant? If a sailor is 200 miles out or just 20 miles out, can the Mexican coast guard board and inspect like the US Coast guard can?

I understand the need to check for safety and illegal stuff, but I certainly understand Jeff's point, of a complete lack of 4th amendment rights. I can understand both views and I see the conflict.

Interesting thread.

[gtc]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Agreed, on both counts. Great information form our Coast Guard - and thanks, guys, for your service. Very interesting to learn what it is you guys really do.

So, what about our inland waterways? Not much human trafficking or drug running going on on your typical lake whereupon folks are waterskiing, jet boating, and the like. Every county sheriff or municipal cop with a boat can stop any boater they like, with absolutely no probably cause, and board that boat, right? And everyone seems to be o.k. with that?

What if the fire marshal just drove around and randomly knocked on doors, demanding entry to check for alarms and extinguishers? What if cops did the same thing, just randomly checking your homes for illegal activity, randomly pulling you over to check your seat belts and air bags? No one would put up with that.

This strikes me as a rather remarkable difference.

Anyone with a pair of binoculars can easily identify the people on a lake that need to be stopped. The ones i see the most are: people who think that being on a boat allows them to get trashed and do whatever they like (dangerous to themselves and others) and people with poorly maintained and/or leaky vessels, which is bad for the environment and potentially dangerous for themselves or others if their crappy old boat loses power out in open water.

How about the DFW people that inspect your catch when you get back to the dock?

[tevake]

I've probably acclumulated over three years of time spent in the waters of other countries in the South Pacific on various trips, And rarely been approached by their law enforcement vessels.
Most have a small navy of a few small cutter type vessels used for patrolling their national waters. And no Coast Guard to be seen.

Arriving yachts are required to check in with Port Captain, Health and Imigration inspectors at a major port, before stopping in elsewhere. Once cleared in you are free to wander at will, with some few exceptions.

In some cases their police and Imigration officers will come out in small boats to check out visiting yachts in anchorages to see if they have done the required check in formalities. Rarely armed or aggressive, just checking your papers, possibly come aboard when invited, for a cold drink and maybe share some local points of interest.
Quite friendly and casual.

Quite the contrast to the armed forced boardings now experienced here with the cutter standing by with the 50 cal mounted and manned on the bow.

Yes Jeff, being a boater and especially a live aboard in the US is quite the loss of citizens rights afforded to citizens ashore.
Plus the right to anchor freely is being increasingly limited in most coastal states. Now with designated anchoring areas shrinking and pressure to mainly stay in harbors or marinas becoming the norm.

It is what it is in this land of the free.
Don't get me wrong, I love America and am happy to be a citizen. It's just that there seems to be some very tense law enforcement procedures in place these days.
And I'm an old white guy, can't imagine the experience of being a "suspicious minority type guy."

Sorry, rant over.

Cheers Richard

Ps. I can see that my last couple of "safety check boardings". Have left a really bad taste in my mouth. In contrast to how I've been treated overseas. Sorry to have vented it all out here.

[Wetwork]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I have one question for the folks that have sailed outside the US waters. I presume other countries have the equivalent of the cost guard for their countries. Do all the "coast guard like" entities have the same powers to board and inspect with no warrant? If a sailor is 200 miles out or just 20 miles out, can the Mexican coast guard board and inspect like the US Coast guard can?

I understand the need to check for safety and illegal stuff, but I certainly understand Jeff's point, of a complete lack of 4th amendment rights. I can understand both views and I see the conflict.

Interesting thread.

Many of the other "Coast Guards" are just Search and Rescue. Smaller countries just use their Navy's, or local marine law enforcement patrols to do boarding's. Ask yourself if you think a third world country has to ask to climb on your boat in their territorial waters? Often the EEZ (Exclusive Economic Zone) extends 250nm off shore. So if they think you are fishing, or mining or using their resources they can enforce their resource laws on you. All of these things depend if those countries signed the treaties in 1982. If the didn't get in on the treaty deal, who knows? Before '82 it was a real mess countries claiming all kinds of water's as their own.


We have the Posse Comitatus Act keeping us from using our Navy to enforce law on our own citizens.

The Coast Guard is kept under other agency's umbrella's so they can enforce maritime law. We are currently Homeland Security. When I first enlisted we worked for the Department of Transportation. During wartime, we have our Homeland Security affiliation dropped and work under the Navy. It's that Navy deal that makes us part of the "real Armed Forces." It's also why we have the same ranking systems, and have to train so much with the stupid squids, and why we fall under the UCMJ.

In general, if you are transiting outside of 12nm (High Seas), you only fall under the jurisdiction of your own mother country. Inside of that as long as you don't stop your transit, you fall under the Right of Innocent Passage also adopted in the 1982 Treaty. Force majeure can also play a part so you could moor up during a storm or if you broke down, and not be subject to the other country as long as you don't leave the boat and don't pollute. Other countries can enforce pollution and smuggling and safety stuff on you if you are stopping to refuel, or stay for a visit. All of the high sea stuff really only applies to the Nations who signed the 82 treaty.-WW

[911boost]

This has been a great thread, this is an example of a type of thread I really enjoy when folks with actual knowledge chime in. I do still miss the chest thread though.

Appreciate the CG folks on here, thank you.

Speaking of SeaTow, this was the result of a bad riser on my aunts boat on the inland waterway in NC a few years ago. I shut it down to prevent any damage.

[RWebb]

Eastern Oregon, WetWork?

Well, just keep the potato people from sending tubers across our border... in Hells Canyon(?)

I was going to post that USCG in Orygun seems to be regarded differently than the Floridians are posting... mostly what I hear is "No - don't close that base! Our fishermen might drown" etc.

[tevake]

WetWork has mentioned being involved with the surf boats in Oregon. These are the crews that face the surf closing river bars along the coast there in the PNW.

These personnel are right up there with rescue swimmers as some of the bravest most heroic positions in the service. Often exposing themselves to extreme danger in the exicution of their duties.

I'll let him fill in the details. Just want to say that there are functions of the Coast Guard that warrant the highest regard and appreciative respect of Mariners everywhere.

Cheers Richard

[Wetwork]

I've been pretty blessed. Grew up on a angus ranch founded in 1908. Graduated HS in 1989 and enlisted. Went to boot camp in Cape May NJ, then got stationed in Cleveland on the CGC Neah Bay. In a year and a half I'd been in all the Great Lakes the St. Lawrence Seaway, and the North Atlantic as far south as Nantucket. We really got around. After four years I was transferred back to Oregon to begin training to be a Surfman. With such a shortage of them I basically got to pick where I wanted to be stationed, the rest of my career.

Right after 9/11 they deployed boat crews from every station in Oregon and Washington to patrol the Sound, and provide security for Navy assets. So I spent some time up there "guarding" aircraft carriers LOL. After the USS Cole got blasted by a suicide boat, it was evident this could be a threat. So there I was running around Puget Sound trying to look tactical. We didn't have any training, the policies of engagement changed daily, and it was all basically seat of the pants, invent procedures as we go. Fun as hell. Complete, 100 percent out of the box.

This was before they started the tactical coxswain schools, which is basically dog-fighting our gun boats, and proper methods to escort high value assets through waterways. A Natural Gas Tanker would make a nice fuel air explosion right?

That high speed low drag stuff wasn't for me, sure I did the boarding's and such, we all have to, but I had no desire to transfer to the squids for BUDDs. Some of us did. I wanted a poster with a Coastie on it with the trident pin, captioned "So easy, a Coastie can do it" but my command didn't think that was funny. Those coasties that did become SEAL's..well none of us ever heard from'em again?

I just wanted to drive my tiny boat in the biggest seas and surf I could find, and rescue people in the storms the helo's can't fly in. Easy Peasy, I'm a simple man. Time flies...been a decade now since I retired. Scariest thing I do now is load bulls in the stock trailer.-WW