I always thought trackdays wasn't about racing :confused:

Jeff if it's becoming more difficult to keep up why not take on the challenge of further developing your car and driving skills.

Would be a much cheaper and less frustrating option than racing

Personally I'd get a lot of pleasure from trying to hang off the back of a 991 or making myself difficult to pass driving what appears to be a much less capable car

I chose a long time ago only to be paid to get my racing/competitive fix as I know I'd only end up broke, divorced and at the back of the grid if my own money was used.

You are absolutely right - they are not about racing. With the huge disparity in speed between my car and the newest Porsches, however, I am now "driving my mirrors" for the entire lap, and constantly moving off line to point others by. And slowing them down until the next "let-by" zone, where it is legal to allow them to pass.

??? How "developed" do you think a 1972 911 can ever get? "Developed" enough to run with modern 991's, GT3's and the like?

As it stands today, my lap times are virtually identical, if not just a shade faster, than those of my vintage racing buddy in his '69, a class winning race car. I have a lot more motor, he has more skill, so it evens out in the end. With his skill, I might be a couple seconds quicker than I am today. That still leaves about ten seconds per lap to make up to close the gap to the GT3's and the like.

And that is exactly what I was doing in the 996 then 997 era. I was still getting a lot more point-bys than I was giving. I had a constant parade of guys in the pits coming by to see just "what the hell is that thing?" The point of this thread, though, is that with the 991's and on, those days are gone. Just ain't happening, no matter how far we can develop a 1972 911, nor how well we can drive one. Technology - 47 more years of it - has won.

hoosiers: the great equalizer!

assuming most of the cars are on streetish tyres

You could put Hoosiers on Jeff's car--hell, you could put an LS7 in the back--and it would still be no match for the modern cars, even with Fangio in it. Same with my 85.


Jeff--I think you made the right decision on the racecar. I started W2W in 2000, and even in a spec class (Spec Racer Ford) the costs were huge. I leased the car for $1800 a weekend. For that I got the car, tires (never new), and gas for the weekend, which consisted of a 20 minute practice session, 20 minute qualifying session, and then a 20 minute race the next day. Assuming nobody crashed and shortened the session or put it under yellow. Do the math and on a per-hour basis--Dershowitz money. That was before damages. I bought at least one new nose piece after being punted from behind into a tire wall during practice, plus with a radiator here and a tie rod there, things added right up. SRF was a full contact class. Email on Mondays after a race weekend was always a surprise.

I raced a Spec Miata that I owned in 2005, and found it to be a similarly huge expenditure for virtually no track time. I went back to DEs because I could get in triple the track time for less cost. At higher speeds, to boot!

Think we're made of different stuff

You sound like you/your car have both grown old but aren't enjoying the young stuff making you look slow

No idea how developed your car is but there is always scope for development, tyres (as mentioned), weight, modern dampers, underbody aero, circuit specific ratio's etc, etc.

Or choose tracks more in tune with your car's qualities ie tight and twisty rather than straight and fast

Your an old dude, decades of experience, use this to out smart them, I didn't say beat them or keep up with them just make it more difficult for them

Accept you won't beat them but as least have the enjoyment/satisfaction of knowing you/your car hustles along a lot faster than the new car owners expect

Some people do trackdays to wave their johnson's, or to show boat the size of their wallets, others do it to have fun with friends, or too afraid/poor to go racing. Which one is you?

Jeff, I ran for a few years with PNWR in Seattle before I started racing open wheel FV in 2008 and then didn't do DE's for several years. Your experience mirrors mine recently as I've run a few DE's in my 911 that has a Chris Powell build 3.2 liter motor in an SC with a limited slip and Fordahl enhanced suspension in Spokane with PCA. I went through the instructor certification this year. This same car back in 2006-2008 was a ton of fun in Seattle. I run with the instructor group in Spokane and while we don't have as many cars they are almost exclusively 991 or later 911's or GT3, Turbo 996/997, etc. I was the slowest car out of 10 or so at our last event. Still fun to drive but I was basically by myself the whole time.

I sold my FV cars as I'd been there and done that. We also had enough "open wheel" incidents over the course of a few years that I decided if I was going to keep racing it was going to be in something with more metal around me and fenders.

We'd love to have more cars in SOVREN and the rules have changed quite a bit over the years but it can be expensive. The cheapest route is FV. Next would be Formula Ford and that is a large and competitive group. Entry fees are definitely more and you are pedaling harder so the risk of an "incident" are greater but you wouldn't put more strain on the cars mechanicals necessarily.

When I started in 2008 we'd have almost a whole grid of 356's. Those are mostly gone unfortunately.

I picked up a 914-6 tribute car and will be getting that ready for next year hopefully. We are seeing a few more 914's come into vintage racing. Build a six, throw it in a 914-4 and go racing :-) You won't care if it gets banged up a bit.

I usually do run Hoosier or Khumo slicks, have run them for years. Current tire of choice are AO48's, since that is pretty much what all of the SOVREN 911's run, due to class rules requiring a 60 series or higher profile and some "tread". I wanted to get the feel for them and see how I compared to the real race cars. Turns out very favorably... might even run in front... but then they would want to see about my motor...

I have discussed the cost of campaigning a SOVREN 911 with not only my buddy in the #65, but with several other good friends, including Rod and Gary Emory. The consensus is about $3,000 per race weekend, amortizing all costs over the year. Tires, gas and oil, dragging the car to out of the area to distant tracks, hotels, food, and general wear and tear on the car. A little more than I want to commit to a "hobby".

Capt., I'm afraid you don't understand any of this at all.

I never said I do not enjoy my track days - I said I love them. I do understand, however, the impact my participation has upon others who are out there to enjoy their track days as well. That's my concern. If I didn't care about them, I would just blithely carry on, getting in their way and slowing them down.

My car is as "developed" as a true-to-era 1972 911 will ever be. The very best suspension goodies available for these cars, later 3.2 Carrera "wide A" calipers on the front, while sticking with the original torsion bar layout. My track day buddy's car even goes as far as to have full coil-over, heim jointed, 935 style suspension and turbo brakes all around. We are both making over 250 hp at the crank, both running limited slip diffs, and both substantially lightened. Mine is under 2,200 pounds, his about 2,300. There is simply nowhere left to go, short of flaring them and putting massive rubber under them, and neither of us wants to go there. Besides, that might be worth a few seconds per lap, a fraction of the gap to the newer cars. Like I said, as it stands, we are, right now, with our cars in their current state of "development", running lap times competitive with full-on vintage 911 race cars of the same era. There is just nowhere left to go.

We have two local tracks within two hours or less from my home, expanding to maybe four if I am willing to drive a bit and spend the night (which I do, a couple of times per year). They are all the same - big, open, "horsepower" tracks. We have no tight, twisty, "handling" tracks nearby. Hell, I'm not aware of one on the west coast, much less in reasonable range for frequent track days. Your suggestion to simply choose another track is horribly unrealistic.

Lastly, I'm not sure you understand how a track day works. There is no "making it difficult for them" - do that and you will find yourself black flagged off of the track and discussing your driving with the track master. Track days provide very limited passing areas in which faster cars are allowed to pass slower cars. Always on a straight, never in the corners. And they can only pass when you, the slower car, acknowledges their presence and authorize them to pass by pointing your arm out the window. If they pass without this "point by", or if they pass anywhere that is not a "passing zone", they get black flagged and get to talk to the boss.

What this means is that when a faster car catches you, there is no "defending", or "making it difficult" for them to pass you. They are required to stay behind you until the next passing zone. That can be half a lap or more on some of our tracks. And, while the first one is stuck behind you for that half a lap, his buddies are piling up behind him, equally frustrated at being held up until the next passing zone. You cannot let them pass even if you wanted to - again, that's an immediate black flag and trip to the principal's office. Then, when you do get to the next passing zone, it is often too short to let more than a couple of them pass. Unless, of course, you land on your brakes and just park it, but then that presents another set of dangers for both you and everyone coming up behind you. And another sure black flag.

I do this to have fun with my friends. I'm too "poor" to go racing. And again, while it is still an awful lot of fun to take to the track, especially when a buddy brings his early car so I have someone to play with, I am painfully aware of the impact our fun is now having on others' fun. If I were selfish and didn't give a rip, this wouldn't bother me. But it does.

Edit - Jerry, I saw your old car at the Historics this year. Talked to Walt a bit as well - he is really enjoying FV after parking the 911. I think there were only two 356's in the whole field. Geez, I remember when Rod and Gary alone supported damn near twenty of them. And it looks like the 240 Z's are killin' the old 911's...

Drive your car at its limit. Do it well. The hell with the other guys on the track.

You didn't listen. The group I ran with (Jack Olsen's usual outing) is the same. Fortunately at big Willow there are 2 long straights for passing. Streets of Willow not so much. Usually just one.

I've run Streets of Willow a number of times with the R Gruppe. We run the largest configuration, clockwise. The big downhill after the bowl and the front straight are the only two passing zones we use. If you didn't get it done on the front straight, it is a long, long ways to the downhill if you are stuck behind someone. Fortunately, as an R Gruppe only event, we are all driving about the same cars. I could not imagine being out there with GT3's and the like. That would be a bad day for them. Horribly frustrating, stuck behind me, unable to legally pass for 3/4 of a lap.

That's the real issue here. With open passing, anywhere around the track, it would be a non-issue. Most clubs do not allow that, however. I think that's the part a lot of guys are missing. The fast cars cannot pass us until we are in a passing zone. And we can only let so many by when we do get to one.

Driving a slow(er) car fast is always more fun and less risky. Without the nannies half of those 991 guys would be dead. Not a knock on them, but the cars are lethal fast. Shoot, your 911 could kill ya, imagine it with warp drive.
Not sure I get it. There comes a point where impressive as it is, its not about you but about the 150k in the car. That's not bitter. Really, the DE events need to break the run groups up by hp and vintage, if they want the older cars to keep coming out. Or maybe they'd just as soon be done.
If the coin was lying around, I'd go join a Monticello type country club track.

The problem around here, Greg, is they have no incentive to change. They sell out every event within a day or two of registration opening, with a waiting list as long as the entrant list. They don't have to care if the older cars keep coming out.

I don't begrudge the newer car drivers their fun. That's the point of my lament - I realize I must be detracting from it. Yeah, they all feel like superheroes, have probably convinced themselves they are better drivers than they really are, and have spent a metric schitt tonne of money. That doesn't make them bad people. Maybe a little unaware of some things, maybe a little delusional, but what the hell - they are living their dream. More power to them. I just wish there were a venue in which I could continue to pursue mine, without interfering with theirs.

I run Streets often with PCA. I drive a 2009 street Cayman 2.9L (261hp) in a field of GT4s, 991 GT3s, 991 Turbos in Red group. It is my home track, tight and technical, and I probably have logged 2500 laps on that one. I wear decent tires and have a decent setup so I can often outrun those guys in the playground and up the hill. Once we hit the straights they will disappear if they are anywhere near me. Some of these guys have 600+ hp and they are king of the straights. We do have expanded passing in Red but still 90% of passes get done on the straights because I can run with the fast but heavy cars in the corners

At AAA Speedway I run in Red group with all these same high HP cars plus a handful of 991 Cup cars getting in practice laps for their main event. This track is nearly all straights with a few tight corners and the 1-2 banked Roval. It is rare for them to get stuck behind me because I see them coming and position myself for an unobstructed pass, just like GT cars at Le Mans when being approached by a LMP. Some of them are turning 20 seconds per lap faster than my car . No matter. I have no interest in buying into their lap times so I just run my game, focus on personal best laps, and lay down a few clean laps for the final official Time Trial competition where I am scored against cars of similar HP/Wt ratio..

From an organizer perspective it might make the most sense to have a vintage run group. All solo pre 1997 cars running below XX lap times can run there without being steamrolled by the 991 GT3 train. In a 4 run group event with enough early cars I could see: Novice/student, Vintage, Modern Solo, and Advanced/Instructor. This makes room for everyone.

If you are running 1:26 or better at Streets, or 1:55 or better at AAA Speedway you are moving pretty well and should have no trouble running in traffic with the street 991 GT3 train at either track. Fully prepared GT3 Cup cars are a different story.

Understand a lot more than you give me credit for

Just for clarity I read it that the main root cause of your problem is not your car or the other super hero cars/drivers or the tracks or the organisers but your resistance to accept you need to change your game.

Cajundaddy gets it :cool:, maybe his post's will be of help as he seems to still enjoy himself in a similar/less performance car to yours without slowing up others

Might be worth asking him how his approach and what he does differs from how you go about doing trackdays. Somehow I think even if he was to say you wouldn't be interested or listen

My mistake, I thought the issue was the cars. It's the rules. The DEs I've run at Mid-Ohio, if there is a car on your bumper you are expected to move right and wave them around. You can pass anywhere on the track. Let them by and get back to driving your car. It works great.

I only occassionally do low key hpde events so i am a bit confused. Cant just run in a slower class? This group has gt3s on near slicks and purpose built hpde cars on Hoosiers but only has very limited passing?

Do they have SCCA Track Night in America track nights where you are? I've been to a few of those and they are a total blast.. You car would dominate the middle class.. I have some friends that have gone this route for that reason.

https://www.tracknightinamerica.com/

Uh, no - this reply indicates more so than ever that you simply do not get it. Not in the least. Cajundaddy's post indicates that he runs with an organization that allows open passing. Our local PCA does not, as I have stated time and time again. That simple difference changes everything. Others are able to understand that difference (see below, and read other replies in this thread) - I'm at a loss as to why you do not. The local situation in my area has been very clearly explained. You are clearly unwilling to listen to, or understand, these clear explanations. You obviously do not understand the difference between "open passing" and "restricted passing" and the impact that difference has on what happens at a track day. Oh well.

Yup, that is the crux of the problem - the rules - no open passing. All passing is done in designated passing zones. Violating them will get you sent home. As a result, the fast cars crawling up your bumper are forced, by the rules, to wait for the designated passing zones.

Even the slowest non-beginner class in this area, at PCA track days, is populated with GT3's, modern Turbos, GT4's, and the like. Running on dedicated track day tires or even on slicks. Passing limited by the rules. Even a beginning driver, in those cars, will out-run a seasoned driver in any air cooled car. One could bring out a real 3.0 RSR and still get buried by these new cars driven by first time drivers. The cars are that good.

Yes, I have done several of those events, and they are wonderful. They get a real mix of cars, with nowhere near the GT2, GT3, GT4 saturation level of our local PCA events. I run every one I can, in the "A" group, and have a ball. Never feel like I'm holding up the entire group. This is kind of one of the last havens for those of us with older cars. Unfortunately, there just are not that many being held around here.

I have a track only 996 GT3. The car is slow compared to a 991.2 base Carrera. I'm impressed with how fast even the 997.2 Carreras are. The direct injection cars (997.2-on) are a huge step up. Combine that with PDK and traction control (even when it's off it's not really off) and they make even the most mediocre driver look like a pro.

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Bit of a ridiculous thread no? 20 years ago you smoked everybody on the track. Fast forward and the box stock plane Jane 991 will smoke your car around the track. Seems like things have come full circle, I’m not sure why the animosity? Technology never stops, sounds like it’s time to evolve or find another venue. This is why vintage racing exists, eventually vintage cars can’t hang in the context of modern racing.