Fun with an FAL

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by red-beard

When you have access to the AR10, I would love a comparison to the FAL. I like the AR10/AR15 platform with the barrel inline with the stock.

I sold off my M1/M14 conversion rifle. And I'm considering selling the FAL.

I would LOVE an AR10 in 30-06!

We will definitely do a three-way comparison if my oldest winds up with an AR10. That should be a lot of fun.

So, I've spent some time on the Daniel Defense website, perusing their AR10's. Not that they are the only ones making them, but it looks like they are offer .308 length actions only. .308, 6.5 Creedmoor, and .260 Remington. Does someone actually make on in a "full length" (.30-'06 length) action? That might pique my interest...

Originally Posted by flipper35

Our youngest has had his eye on those too. He will be saving for a while. Our daughter has a soft spot for levers.

What a fine young lady. One can tell just from the photo that she is clearly far more sophisticated, intelligent, and refined than her brother.

[Jeff Higgins]

Oh, and I forgot to mention - I've put the Skinner sights on three of my Ruger #1's. Fantastic sights - might have to put one on my '95 Marlin as well.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

So, I've spent some time on the Daniel Defense website, perusing their AR10's. Not that they are the only ones making them, but it looks like they are offer .308 length actions only. .308, 6.5 Creedmoor, and .260 Remington. Does someone actually make on in a "full length" (.30-'06 length) action? That might pique my interest...

Noreen

https://onlylongrange.com/bn36x3-long-range-270-25-06-30-06/

22" Barrel.

They make interchangeable uppers for .270 and 25-06. And they do carbine uppers as well.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Oh, and I forgot to mention - I've put the Skinner sights on three of my Ruger #1's. Fantastic sights - might have to put one on my '95 Marlin as well.

Hers are Skinner too. Great guy to work with. She wanted brass so they would stand out a bit. Kids and their parent's money.

[gtc]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

If you mean the one off of the Sultan Basin Road and 116th, yes, they closed it almost ten years ago.

Ah. Good to know.

[FOG]

Jeff,

My son likes to build low riding hot rod pick-up trucks as a side job so you don't get much sympathy from me on the taste's of the off-spring.

The reason I suggested the test is that similar tests were done between commonwealth militaries and USA or USMC in the 60's. I'll see if I can dig up the actual reports but the gist was basically everyone thought the FAL would win as it “felt” better, etc. while the results showed just the opposite from mad minute/FPF, etc. tests. The M-14 had more round on target as compared to the L1As, even when the unit switched rifles and fired with the other's weapon. I surmise is similar to people shooting a nice Browning Hi-Power that feels great the shoot a HK USP that feels like a 2x4 mated with a brick.

I have found that people are attracted to the FALs and they are a great way to get people converted from non-gun to gun folks. I still have nine variants on Imbels, three of which younger folks are trying to claim.

I suggest your son look at AR-10s from GAP, JP, and LMT. The GAP is generally the heaviest, but shoots a wider variety of ammunition very well. The JP derives from three gun events, is accurate, has an aluminum finned sleeve around the barrel, is a side charger, and is easier/better if a suppressor is being used. The LMT has top notch machining, easier to switch barrels, and built for field use.

I have not seen let alone used one of the Noreen AR-10s in 30-06 but Nemo makes a nice one in .300 Win Mag.

As an alternative someone makes (made?) a modernized, lightened (13-14 lbs.) closed bolt BAR in 30-06. I forget who the manufacturer is but a friend uses one for hog eradication on his family ranch in central Texas. More accurate than FAL or M-14 but behind the AR-10s in accuracy, trigger is closer to a FAL than M-14 or AR-10, and pricey.

Red-Beard,

I'll give you my quick comparison. The FAL generally feels. Neither is very hard to scope. The AR-10 has far better options for good triggers. Being able to shoot extended strings without a welding mitt on your hand if a little easier with the AR-10 with lots of variables. The FAL is harder on scopes (though not nearly as hard as the SCAR 17). The AR-10s are absolutely more accurate and hold their zero better. The FAL is far easier for someone unfamiliar with them (or shooting in general) to shoot better.

To clarify my last sentence above I have multiples of each to include a couple .5-.6 MOA capable GAPs and a couple of FALs that are legitimate 1.5-2.0 MOA rifles. Without fail unless the shooter is experienced he/she shoots better with the FAL in the 100-300 yard range.

My best advice in rifle shooting is buy a RWS spring powered airgun that shoots .22 pellets in the 800-900 FPS range. Do not buy some other cheaper airgun, no gas rams or PCPs. The spring pistons will shoot very well (better than the majority of .22LR at 50 yards) but it requires lots of practice and consistent technique (i.e. how you hold it) to get the performance out of them. The ability to hold consistently and the follow through required of the spring pistons will transfer to other platforms.

S/F, FOG

[red-beard]

Ohio Ordnance make the BAR. And I'd love to pick up one of those. But they are heavy!

I've had AR's, M14's and FALs. The issue, I really like the AR platform. I love the in-line barrel. I love how light they are for the round. I'd love a Noreen, but really don't need to spend the money...

[911boost]

I have a Browning made BAR built in 1968 I believe, in 30-06. I use it with iron sights for white tail in NE. Well I used too, the area we would go got hit with the Blue Tongue disease.

It belonged to an Uncle of mine and I bought it from my Aunt when he passed. It will go to my son someday.

Not at home currently but can take pics and weigh it when I get back.

[Jeff Higgins]

There are two distinctly different Browning BARs. There is the still produced hunting rifle, like the one you use to hunt white tails. Then there is the old military version, which was kind of the precursor to the SAW, the Squad Automatic Weapon. This was a very heavy (20 pounds or more) fully automatic rifle. It was used in WWII, Korea, and I believe possibly in Vietnam. I believe these guys are talking about the latter.

The sporting rifle is on top, the military on the bottom:

[911boost]

Yep, I used the term BAR lightly of course. Mine looks exactly like the top one, minus the optics.

Did you know you can buy a civilian SAW by FN now as well? Crazy expensive and I don’t understand it, but...

[Jeff Higgins]

Hell, you think that's bizarre, up until just a couple of years ago Colt was still selling real Gatling guns. They are actually legal, because they are "manually" operated by cranking a handle. .45-70 caliber, they were selling for about $25k brand new. Can't touch one for less than $50k now.



Used to be a guy who brought one to our black powder cartridge rifle long range match in Oregon. He invited anyone with black powder, lead bullet .45-70 ammunition to shoot it. A few guys did - boy, that was fun to watch. The looks on their faces when they were done were priceless. You see, reloading black powder match ammo is no easy task - we must cast our own bullets, make our own bullet lubricant, punch out our own over powder wads, carefully hand weigh each powder charge and then slowly trickle it into the case so it settles properly, and on and on. It takes hours to load a 50 round box. And less than ten seconds to burn through that 50 round box with a Gatling gun... The looks on their faces, looking down at the pile of empty brass at their feet and realizing what they had just done was hilarious. They all said it was absolutely worth it, though. Fun times...

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Went to this guys IG didn’t find any details. What are we looking at here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jeff Higgins]

It's the Marlin model 1895SBL in .45-70. Here is a link:

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/lever-action/model-1895-big-bore/model-1895sbl

[sc_rufctr]

Marlin 1895SBL. Used in the movies Wind River & Jurassic World.

I haven't used one but it looks like the perfect length for trail walking.

[FOG]

Red-Beard,

Jeff is correct, I am talking about the 1918 BAR derivative in 30-06.

I have AR-10 variants from GAP, JP, and LMT. Compared to FAL variants all are much more accurate, have much better triggers than possible with a FAL, and generally handle heat in the forearm better.

Having stated the above when I get newer or casual shooters over they overwhelmingly prefer the FAL variants. In that sense the FAL is superior, people having fun shooting.

Another variant to look at is from LaRue. I have limited time on their OBR but it was good. I think they are relatively close to you giving you the advantage of actual face time plus ease of suppressor purchase if that's in your future.

S/F, FOG

[red-beard]

FOG, Ohio Ordnance makes a 1918, in 30-06

[sc_rufctr]

[Jeff Higgins]

Great timing, Peter - I just had the opportunity to try out another FAL. I went shooting with a young man who served an internship in our engineering group right before I retired. He hails from rural Oregon, and is quite the gun enthusiast. He picked up a folding stock paratrooper example and wanted to compare it to my M1A.

His rifle shot wonderfully, but was less than friendly ergonomically. The small diameter tube that serves as the comb on its folding stock simply could not provide any kind of a cheek weld, and thereby made it difficult to really steady the rifle. I can see it as an expedient where necessary, but the standard rifle is definitely superior.

My older son finally decided on and ordered his rifle. He chose to forego the AR10 and order a brand new FAL from DS Arms. It should be here in about six weeks. He ordered a lot of the bells and whistles on it, from an improved trigger to the improved sights and some other features. Should be a nice rifle.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by tabs

One word..plastic.

Three words

John Moses Browning

Ha, that video Peter shared with us popped up on my youtube recommended list last week. I think those mugs are tracking my ass.

I need to buy one of my buddy's .357 lever guns. He has two. One he has used, the other his father fired a few times.

[Jeff Higgins]

Well, my other son's DSA made FAL arrived last week so my two sons and I hied off to the gravel pit to give it a workout. He ordered some upgrades with it, including a better rear sight and trigger. Both proved to be worthy upgrades over the purely mil-spec Imbel built rifle. Which is to say, at least as far as the trigger, it's been upgraded from truly horrible to just horrible. Anyone raised on U.S. or European sporting rifles will struggle with these. Probably better for troops not raised around firearms, but for the rest of us, well... The rear sight, however, did provide much easier windage adjustment, but at the expense of giving up all elevation adjustment - that is purely in the front sight on this rifle. Not very convenient, and certainly not "battlefield adjustable" which, again, is probably better for troops who didn't grow up shooting.

We mounted optics to both FALs, a Leupold 1.4-4x variable with bullet drop reference points on the Imbel, and some military-ish "tactical" thing on the DSA. My M1A is the shorter "Scout Squad" version, which came with a short, barrel mounted picatinny rail just ahead of the receiver. I removed that immediately when I got it, and even replaced the upper hand guard (that had a cutout for it) with a standard hand guard, minus the cutout. My sons talked me into putting it all back on and mounting a 2x "scout scope" just to try it out.

We learned a few things about these rifles. The optics revealed just how inaccurate these FALs really are - they are, at best, maybe three or four minute rifles. I suppose that is "good enough" for their intended purpose, and reliable function and ruggedness trump accuracy, but - really? Is that the best they can do, in this day and age? My M1A managed about two minutes, but that still isn't anything to write home about.

I wound up removing the scout scope when I got home, along with the picatinny rail. Mounted that far forward, I found even a 2x scope has such a small field of view as to be almost useless. I can see why this never really caught on. I'll stick with the peep sights. Oh, and we did find the scopes on the FALs to be repeatable as far as return to zero when removed and re-installed. That's good news.

So, I guess all in all, I'm happy that my sons like their FALs. Just not my cup of tea, however. Maybe if a "match" version were available, with a truly nice trigger and decent accuracy, I might be interested. I suspect someone out there must build one, but I bet they get a bit spendy. For now, though, I'll just have to stick with my M1A - it's notably more accurate and has a far better trigger. I'm not really a "black rifle" guy anyway. The M1A might wind up being my only foray into those waters.