Elon Musk says college is 'basically for fun' but 'not for learning,'
 

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-college-not-for-learning-not-required-at-tesla-2020-3

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Elon Musk says he doesn't think a college degree means you have "exceptional ability."

The Tesla and SpaceX CEO shared his views on college during a fireside chat on Monday at the Satellite 2020 conference. During the audience Q&A portion, Musk was asked how colleges and industries could make it easier for students to afford college, as well as create more access for underprivileged students.

Musk said "you don't need college to learn stuff" and that knowledge is available basically for free. He described college as a bunch of "annoying homework assignments" and said one of the main values of attending college is students spending time with people their own age before joining the workforce.

"I think colleges are basically for fun and to prove you can do your chores, but they're not for learning," Musk said, garnering applause and a few laughs.

When I delivered corporate courses we joked (only half joked) that our value as instructors was helping you manage you time so that you would invest it in learning while we kept you away from other activities for a while.

That would certainly explain why spaceX prefers engineering interns to have a minimum 3.5 gpa :rolleyes:
He must be hitting the bong too hard.



https://www.spacex.com/internships

Over the years we hired a few recent college graduates with real degrees from real universities.

More than a few were indeed just educated idiots and did not last long. College is purely what the students makes of it. Thurman Thomas was a talented football player, and he received a college degree and he later admitted he was functionally illiterate. Football players in particular and college athletes often (certainly not always!) only go to play the sport, and hope to go pro.

Lots of degrees in French History and music appreciation were just wastes of money.

The flip side is all the engineers, and scientists that have truly changed the world through their education.

I went to a challenging engineering school. Finished it in 4 years with 160 credits. Worked my a$$ off. Took out over $25K in student loans back in the 80s. I learned time management and how to perform under great pressure and an impossible volume of work. I saw students far more gifted than me crumble and fail out or turn into raging alcoholics.

I then joined the Air Force and flew rescue and special operations helicopters for 27 years and 5000 flight hours. I directly credit my ball busting college to making me comfortable in very dynamic, murky, and impossible situations. Nothing like flying in hostile territory with aircraft issues, mission changes, and someone shooting at you to appreciate that you spent your whole adult life (starting in college) preparing for these moments.

The opportunity is there for people. If you go to a party college, you waste your time and money. If you truly challenge yourself, college can be an exceptional experience that builds a solid foundation for success. You can either get a four-year head start on your peers or you can learn on the job after graduation.

Musk is right and wrong. Many people don't really take advantage of the college opportunity. But many do make the most of it.

I’m not a US government trust fun child like he is, but I do run my own business and I would agree a college degree doesn’t mean **** these days

Really? Maybe not to an entrepreneur or SB owner, but I wouldn't want to run a laboratory or an engineering firm with self educated project staff.

As an aerospace engineer and MBA I partially agree with him. I can count on one hand the number of college courses that are useful to me in my career. It does, however, show that someone is capable of buckling down and working their ass off for years to accomplish said degree. I’ve worked with a number of non-degreed design engineers that would make the average MIT grad look like a fool. College doesn’t make you smart, and it doesn’t make you talented. There’s not one answer to this equation, it’s many shades of gray.

In the '60s to the turn of the '70s I went to a college that was rated number three in the State of CA behind Berkley and Stanford in the department where I was pursuing a science degree. I don't see how you can acquire the specific, technical knowledge and how to apply it without doing the work to get a degree. I agree though there are a bunch of degrees in areas that are worthless.

Would Elon have hired this guy for SpaceX?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Hughes_(daredevil)

a college degree means you have "exceptional ability." as long as exceptional is defined as top 1/4 of entire popn.

~~ of all students go to college & ~~ 1/2 of those get a degree

you can calculate what different degrees mean in terms of "ability" - say EE vs. fine arts with a pottery concentration

... not that there is anything wrong with that!


a college degree is not designed to train you to do anything in particular - it is designed to educate you broadly so you will be versatile and can pick up on different careers quickly


and many people can self-educate anyway (in the liberal arts & fine arts especially)

I had a friend who's mad-scientist type brother was an early hire at SpaceX. No engineering background AFAIK, but he could build or fix just about anything. Not sure what ever happened to him...

Be interesting to see what % of engineers at SpaceX don't have a degree or are self taught

Twice a day I do not dislike Mr. Musk.

The way I read it there are many ways to learn, and today much of the knowledge is no longer locked away.

A good self motivated and intrigued person can learn far more in a shorter time than an unmotivated student in a boring class with a pitiful instructor.

A motivated student and an enthralling instructor is another recipe for success
...as are long term mentorship programs

The big question is in trusting the person's knowledge, and who certifies them to be competent.
-one way is to lie
-Another way is to pay money to a "university" that will sell you a bogus degree

A better way is to go to a real university

But if you are self taught, AND can point to a track record of results, maybe the degree isn't necessary, especially if your work has to be signed off on anyway by a P-eng, some auditor, an inspector or whoever.

This raises the new question beyond what is the best way to learn, but rather who certifies the certifiers

do you have any comparables for F1?

There are losers that went to college and winners that didn't.

I had one college grad that was hired as a fast tracker. He was to learn the process and zoom up the corp ladder. He couldn't get out of his own way. I ended up showing him the door.

I had one non college grad that was exceptional. Could do anything and everything but wasn't going to move an inch up the ladder. I talked him into getting a degree. I let him work a schedule that best benefitted him. Some days he came in at 7. Others at 11, 1, or 3. Different days off each week. He got his degree and immediately moved up the ladder even though nothing from the degree actually helped or changed him.

Funny thing is...I didn't have degree and was never denied a promotion. I worked in production, quality assurance, corp training, corp process trouble shooting, and project start up teams. With a degree I would have been in a slightly higher pay grade for the same job. Cost me about 3 grand a year once I topped out in the pay scale.

Why does everyone eat up what that Yahoo says...

Lets see....

We needed the Calc courses so we could derive and understand many of the classes, including physics. But in the real world, most of us just need up through trig.

In my work I use:

Computer programming and controls
Relay controls
Electrical Circuits
Three phase power systems
VFD and motor control
Instrumentation
Mech design and vibration analysis
Compressible and non-compressible fluid flow
Thermodynamic cycle design (heat recovery design)
Chemical reactions
Partial Pressures and analysis
Steam/Vapor phase analysis
Piping, valve and pressure vessel design
Reviews of metallurgy
Structural design/review
Solar energy modeling
System Analysis
Power System frequency control and analysis

And I also do financial modeling for our projects
Project management
Predictive maintenance
Cost benefit analysis for changes we make to our power plants

A lot of this was honed "On the Job", but I had courses that covered most of the above in College.

Sometimes it is easier to list what I don't do...

Waste Water treatment
Roads
Concrete/foundations

Yes, a college degree generally doesn’t mean much.
But that’s because there’s 3,500+ colleges in the US, and 99% of them are basically “open enrollment” or close to it. Pretty much anyone can go to those, so having been admitted to one, or doing well at one, doesn’t mean a whole lot.
The student body at the 5, 10, 15% admission rate schools is a different story.
Yes, it’s not a guarantee, and you can have duds at those schools and gems at a 90% admission school, for sure.
But hiring is a lot about playing the odds.

It’s why the competition for the very top schools is so fierce. The degrees are worth substantially more.

^ This is true !

I disagree completely with Musk. University is what you make of it. If you're a total idiot, then it's a total waste of time.

The best trained people are MOSTLY self taught in any field. If you were a stupid**** in college, then you'll be a stupid ***** your whole life.

"Don't let schooling interfere with your education" - Mark Twain

Elon likes to blather on... :rolleyes:

The fact is he surrounds himself with people who have graduated from College!

I don't agree with Elon on most things, but do agree with him on this.

College is not about learning. It's about learning how to learn and live independently managing responsibilities.

Most of us don't use much of anything we learned in college factually, but we do use the learning and problem solving techniques we picked up along the way.

Nowdays though the cost is hard to justify for what is basically "adult high school".

A bunch of annoying homework assignments really resonates with me . I just could not do it anymore . The day I walked felt like the first day of the rest of my life .
Some of us are just not wired to be students . My heart was never in it

Are you kidding? The recent grads are having to take "Adulting" classes to figure out how to live independently.

For the non-technical people, there is a lot of partying. For the technical people, there is a smattering of partying and a whole lotta studying and hard work. And I know a few "business" types who studied their butts off and went on to top level careers.

I am studying to become a doctor online for free. You can come to my clinic when I'm done.

My oldest brother thought that in the mid-60's and his GPA fell below average and subsequently was drafted. He served our country in the Navy during Vietnam era and lived to tell about it. Much later in his life, went back to college, specifically VPI and graduated with a degree in Business.

Then went on to have a very sub-par professional life selling insurance until he retired. Fortunately his wife did very well and her retirement / money is what they're living (well) on.

I applaud him for going back, finishing but at the same time frustrated with him that he seemed to never use his learnin' to better himself anymore than what he did.

This is great news. I'll have my daughter, who's studying cognitive science and computer science at UC Davis so she can work in artificial intelligence, to drop out of college and head right down to Silicon Valley to get that fancy, high-paying job she's been planning on. I'll save a ton of money.

People have natural talents, like focus or drive.

Then there are skills that need to be learned, be they physical or mental.

Back in the day, a person did an full up apprenticeship to become a 'craftsman'.

The digital age has kind of reduced that need. Take machining. I am 'self taught' and can do an ok job on simple stuff on the mill and lathe. It makes designing chemistry equipment using new sensor types much faster and easier, but I am a far cry from a classically trained machinist.

My PhD in p-chem has done well by me, but I do not think I would be where I am w/o the 'nuts n bolts' background.

The interesting problems are now at interfaces between subjects.

Book learning by itself is usually not productive. In grad school, those who could do the course work AND knew how to use a screwdriver were the ones that got out with interesting dissertations. The rest just rode on the coat tails of those who could modify, fix, or create the tools of discovery.

The Musks and Ellisons of the world that discount education are the tiny tiny minority who ended up super lucky.

Perhaps Musk can try reading this:
https://aphelis.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ASIMOV_1980_Cult_of_Ignorance.pdf

If you think about it, it shouldn't be surprising that a degree isn't a great accomplishment......because most people enter school with the reasonable expectation of finishing with a diploma. If the schools basically guaranteed that the bottom 25% would not receive a degree, the added hunger games effect might make it more of a milestone to complete. But that would drive prices down as well as interest. It would probably be better for society, but worse for lining the pockets of the institution so it will never happen. College isn't about learning or doing anything other than enriching the organization.

Yep, I remember staying in to study on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday while my roommates were out at the bars. My schedule senior year had me work 30 hours a week (enough to afford my apartment and food) Monday-Thursday as an actuary intern. I had classes Monday-Thursday also, so I had to look ahead do all of my coursework for the next week on Friday-Sunday. I'd usually have to quit when more roommates got home from the bars as it was too loud in the apartment to concentrate. My roommates loved that they could call me as a DD.

Of course, I was a double-major in Finance and Business Information Systems, so my degree is semi-technical.

We don't disagree. So many kids go to college after high school simply because "that's what you are supposed to do"....and flounder at it (yet the colleges are happy to take their $$$ or the goverment's $$$ for it).

Those that are driven will always excel regardless of the path. My main point is that the idea that going to college will make the non-driven become driven is a fallacy and is a massive waste of financial resources forced on the population.

People can be successful with or without traditional college. It just depends on the career path and required credentials.

Are those that agree with Musk embracing the idea that education beyond high school is a waste of time and money? Limited education is better? Or that the only purpose of higher education is to provide a certain financial future?

College today is not like college of 60 years ago. I ghost wrote dozens of papers for students in the last decade and got nothing but A's. I wasn't an A student back when I was in college. In fact, it was too easy. I could research and write a 6 to 10-page paper in 4 hours. Never did the student get questioned about references or plagiarism. And neither did they get dinged on formatting or grammar.

However, I didn't indulge in subjects of physical science, but I did well in living sciences so I wrote a few papers for those subjects.

Zeke, renaissance man. Build you a house, then write an A paper about the fictional people that lived in the house that used to be there

I must have done it wrong, because I learned a lot in college.

Going to college helps you develop a compliant attitude towards work.
After you take out loans and pay through the nose to go to college and be treated like crap by a heartless bureaucracy you feel better about getting a job and get paid to be treated like crap by a heartless bureaucracy.

As one who knows which end of a screwdriver to pick your teeth with I love to tell this story about an egghead, booklearned engineer.
Our lab had a lot of MS and Phd engineers. One of the MS guy called the lab one morning and said his car, an early carbureted Honda Civic, wouldn't start. We told him to test whether it was a fuel or ignition problem by pouring some gas down the carburetor. After half an hour he called back, "I poured a quart of gas down the carburetor and now it won't even turn over!" We found out later he once had to call AAA to change a tire for him.