First gun show ever, advice?

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by cabmando

30-06 is a good rifle but at longer distances can be problematic according to a good friend that has one.

I have found it is a draw between the two rounds. Load work ups are very important for both the 308 and the 30 06. Run out, bullet weight, and muzzle crown all factor in. For my .308 PSS a fire formed brass with a 168 SMK is about equal to my 03a3 with Kieger barrel shooting 175 SMK loads.

And that is one of the fun parts about shooting, is the ballistics and the trying new things.

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by tabs

or this unusual Swede.. 6.5 X 55 M96..Presentation rifle to Mora Nisse..the famous Olympic Gold Medal Cross Country Skier.. a virtual Swede national hero.

I'm a big fan of the Swedish Mausers. Have the 96, 32 (carbine) and the 41B sniper rifle.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by tabs

The 06 was used by the US military for 1000 yd shooting matches at Camp Perry among others. Extremely accurate cartridge.

The 6.5 x 55 is also noted for accuracy as it shoots flat. 7.5 x 55 swiss is a nutz on cartridge. 300 hh 300 win mag..used for long range shooring.

Having spent a fair amount of time on the firing line and in the target butts at 1,000 yard matches, both modern high-power and vintage black powder cartridge, I've observed first hand what works and what does not. The .30-'06 is adequate with the right bullet when pushed to maximum velocities. Some bullets and loads are not, and the bullet begins to tumble after having lost stability somewhere along the way. They sound like little buzz bombs going over the butts.

The various .300 mags have greater margin for error in bullet selection and load development. It is still possible, however, to choose the wrong bullet, and wind up with a load that goes subsonic and loses stability before it gets to the 1,000 yard mark.

The .308 is almost hopeless at 1,000 yards. There are maybe one or two bullets (the Sierra 155 grain Palma being one) that will make it to 1,000 yards without going subsonic, but you really, really have to develop a load that will extract maximum velocity from them. Some rifles just won't allow for that, for various reasons.

So, yeah, the military relied upon the old '06 for this duty for years, but only because it was all they had. They never even tried with the .308. Now that they have some very well developed .300 Win Mag loads, that has become the standard. They have even dropped the .338 Lapua as their long range sniper round, due to the development of their latest .300 mag load.

[speeder]

What is the current rifle on the battlefield for the U.S. military? I'm sure there is more than one but I recently watched "Hurt Locker" again, (great film), and the scene where they ran into some Aussie guys out in the desert and got fired on, they returned fire w some bolt action rifle? Maybe a U.S. sniper gun...super long range battle over open desert if you haven't seen it. Like needed the scope to even see the enemy.

[varmint]

Originally Posted by speeder

What is the current rifle on the battlefield for the U.S. military? I'm sure there is more than one but I recently watched "Hurt Locker" again, (great film), and the scene where they ran into some Aussie guys out in the desert and got fired on, they returned fire w some bolt action rifle? Maybe a U.S. sniper gun...super long range battle over open desert if you haven't seen it. Like needed the scope to even see the enemy.

cool site that is the IMDB of guns.

Hurt Locker, The - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by varmint

cool site that is the IMDB of guns.

Hurt Locker, The - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

triggered my malware app.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by tabs

.a Molot Vepr in 308 (wt box) wt IOR 4 X24 Scope (Romanian Dragunov) 6 Russian mags and 69 rounds of ammo

The Romanian PSL comes with the IOR 4 X 24 scope... it is usually chambered in 7.62 X 54R.which is the old Russian cartridge dating back to the 1890's.

The Molot Vepr is made in Russia with this one in 308 Nato cartridge... which for the American market is more useful in that Ammo will always be available. The ballastics are better with the 308.

The Vepr is a quality, and more quality built AK platform made in Russia. I am not completely enamoured with the configuration but the price was too good to say no..

[varmint]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

triggered my malware app.

Works fine for me.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by speeder

What is the current rifle on the battlefield for the U.S. military? I'm sure there is more than one but I recently watched "Hurt Locker" again, (great film), and the scene where they ran into some Aussie guys out in the desert and got fired on, they returned fire w some bolt action rifle? Maybe a U.S. sniper gun...super long range battle over open desert if you haven't seen it. Like needed the scope to even see the enemy.

Haven't seen the movie, but if the rifles were bolt action, they were indeed some form of sniper rifle. The most common is simply a militarized version of the most popular civilian bolt action hunting rifle of all time - the Remington Model 700. The military versions are known as the M24 and M40. The M24 is a .300 Winchester Magnum, the M40 is a .308. They are just a heavy barreled, fiberglass stocked variant of the Model 700.

Our military does use other rifles in the sniper role, chambered in calibers with a bit more "reach". Next up the list would be the M24A3, chambered in the .338 Lapua Magnum. This one is being phased out in favor of the recently improved .300 Winchester Magnum loads. Beyond that, they use the .50 Browning Machine Gun (BMG) round in rifles for special applications, usually anti-equipment rather than anti-personnel. This is the same round used in the machine guns in B17's, P51's, and other aircraft of WWII - a seriously powerful round.

[Bill Douglas]

Not military, but those 7mm Rem Mag rounds go a long way and are very flat shooting.

[Jeff Higgins]

I had a thread recently wherein I described my Model 700 in 7mm Remington Magnum. I sold it to my hunting buddy in the '90's. He's the one who had the stroke a couple of years ago, can no longer use it, so he gave it back. Anyway, I'm looking forward to using it again. Fantastic open sagebrush country mule deer and antelope combination. The first time I had it, though, I got lured in by its velocity potential, and wound up with a lot of bloodshot meat. I'm using heavier bullets now, lowering velocities a bit, hoping to mitigate that tendency. That was why I sold it to him in the first place. Now that it's back, I don't want to go through that again.

[Seahawk]

So, Denis and I chatted and we have figured out how to do the transfer of the Springfield legally and well.

We talked about a whole bunch of other stuff. I have missed him in my life.

I can tell you folks this with certainty: 1000 yard shooters are, um, absolutely, to a person, committed.

A 1000 freaking yards.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I'm using heavier bullets now, lowering velocities a bit, hoping to mitigate that tendency.

Could you load them down a bit. More like a 7mm=08 or a .270?

[Jeff Higgins]

Committed, or should be committed? It's an insanity. A fun one. Once I learned the game with modern rifles, the switch to black powder, lead bullets, and iron sights really spiced things up. It takes about three seconds for a bullet from my .45-100 Sharps to fly that far...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

Could you load them down a bit. More like a 7mm=08 or a .270?

My buddy tried that and accuracy suffered considerably. Some rifles like 'em hot. This one definitely does.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Committed, or should be committed? It's an insanity. A fun one. Once I learned the game with modern rifles, the switch to black powder, lead bullets, and iron sights really spiced things up. It takes about three seconds for a bullet from my .45-100 Sharps to fly that far...

I will leave it up to you.

It is a remarkable application of theory and test, with results.

At a 1000 yards.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Having spent a fair amount of time on the firing line and in the target butts at 1,000 yard matches, both modern high-power and vintage black powder cartridge, I've observed first hand what works and what does not. The .30-'06 is adequate with the right bullet when pushed to maximum velocities. Some bullets and loads are not, and the bullet begins to tumble after having lost stability somewhere along the way. They sound like little buzz bombs going over the butts.

The various .300 mags have greater margin for error in bullet selection and load development. It is still possible, however, to choose the wrong bullet, and wind up with a load that goes subsonic and loses stability before it gets to the 1,000 yard mark.

The .308 is almost hopeless at 1,000 yards. There are maybe one or two bullets (the Sierra 155 grain Palma being one) that will make it to 1,000 yards without going subsonic, but you really, really have to develop a load that will extract maximum velocity from them. Some rifles just won't allow for that, for various reasons.

So, yeah, the military relied upon the old '06 for this duty for years, but only because it was all they had. They never even tried with the .308. Now that they have some very well developed .300 Win Mag loads, that has become the standard. They have even dropped the .338 Lapua as their long range sniper round, due to the development of their latest .300 mag load.

I asked my friend and he said it was "keyholing" at longer ranges where his 308 didn't have the same tendency. Maybe he needs to refine the load. We're talking about taking his 308, 30-06 and 7mm Mag out along with my nephew's .338 Lapua and having some fun. I love shooting the .338 my nephew has. Has less recoil than my 12 gauge with a 3" slug. It probably has less "kick" than my 450. I shot it freehand from a tree stand bracing myself for the kick that never came.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by cabmando

I asked my friend and he said it was "keyholing" at longer ranges where his 308 didn't have the same tendency. Maybe he needs to refine the load. We're talking about taking his 308, 30-06 and 7mm Mag out along with my nephew's .338 Lapua and having some fun. I love shooting the .338 my nephew has. Has less recoil than my 12 gauge with a 3" slug. It probably has less "kick" than my 450. I shot it freehand from a tree stand bracing myself for the kick that never came.

That makes sense, the keyholing issue. Some really good hunting bullets will do that at longer ranges - they have pretty low ballistic coefficients, with nose shapes designed more for expansion than aerodynamics. They shed velocity quicker than dedicated match bullets.

.338's of any persuasion, Winchester, Lapua, Weatherby, Remington - they all have their own version - always struck me as kind of oddballs. It was Elmer Keith's favorite western big game caliber, so one would think I would be all over it. His experiments with the .333 OKH (O'Neil, Keith, Haskins) based on the .30-'06 case, then the .334 OKH based on the .300 H&H mag case eventually led to the .338 Winchester Magnum. Probably the penultimate elk and brown bear cartridge. Wildly popular, and for good reason. But I've never owned one. Probably never will.

I think Keith himself more or less summed up my feelings toward the .338 - he said it was about 80% as effective as the venerable old .375 H&H magnum in the field. He meant that as high praise. I took it as meaning I really needed a .375 H&H magnum. I now own three rifles so chambered, and have hunted far and wide for thirty years with rifles so chambered. Boy do those things ever hit the big critters hard.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by speeder

What is the current rifle on the battlefield for the U.S. military? I'm sure there is more than one but I recently watched "Hurt Locker" again, (great film), and the scene where they ran into some Aussie guys out in the desert and got fired on, they returned fire w some bolt action rifle? Maybe a U.S. sniper gun...super long range battle over open desert if you haven't seen it. Like needed the scope to even see the enemy.

If you are referring to the "big one" it is the Barrett M107 (aka M82) .50 cal.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I will leave it up to you.

It is a remarkable application of theory and test, with results.

At a 1000 yards.

I'm pretty sure I'd need the Hubble to see a target at 1000 yds! What's the trajectory drop over 1000 yds with say 165 gr? 5 feet?