Democracy

[DonDavis]

Jurgen,
Oops, I was not referring to you.
I read my post again and it did seem worded that way. My bad.

[BGCarrera32]

The public education is not free. It comes from taxes. As far as I am concerned the whole department of education can be scrapped.

Ditto. I went through public school (not that long ago) and graduated high school in '93. I found much of it to be by and large a waste of time. Not that public education is a waste of time per say, but how much time is wasted in school. And it sure as hell isn't free when the NEA/teachers union/school districts continually harp that they need MORE money, and have declining results and accountability to show for their actions.

On another front, it continually amazes me how many people think that the United States is a true democracy, when in fact it is a form therof called a "Representative Republic". Remember "...and to the republic for which it stands..."? Case in point...the electoral college. Transfers power away from huge population centers and transfers the interests of the vote to the land as a whole. We saw this in the last presidential election...but people still think the electoral college should be scrapped because we now have electronic voting machines...

Perhaps if we got back to the basics of history, math, and science in our public schools...and a few less "feel good" classes...more people would be aware of the facts...

-BG

[hoff944]

Thus sayeth to BG Ahhhhhhmennnnnnn. Teachers unions are killing public education. Competition in public schools is being eliminated. Schools now have strict lists for parents that instruct them which supplies to buy for their children all because they want every child to have the same thing. Teachers force kids to give Valentines to every student and Easter Eggs are divided up after the hunt so each kid can have equal eggs. These kids will be in for a shock when they hit the real world. In Nashville the lowest possible score a kid can receive on an assignment is a 50. A zero is now a 50. So you can not turn in an assignment and still make a 50. How pathetic is that? Is anyone noticing a pattern here......but I digress.

[tabs]

I think I also want the job as Minister of Tourism.......

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by tabs
I think I also want the job as Minister of Tourism.......

How about Minister of Information? You would have mighty shoes to fill.

The educational system has its problems, but the problems are also rooted in society. Everyone must accept some blame.

Don, no harm done. I think your post was the direct result of having no Porsche. The brain waves tend to get scrambled, because your neurons are no longer stimulated. 15 minutes of 911 therapy 3 times per week will solve your problem. It works for me.

BG, that's the irony of Milu's post. As far as I know, there exist no true democracies in the world today. The majority of citizenry do not have the will, desire, or knowledge to make good decisions. I feel this is part of the problem in Iraq. You cannot flip the switch and expect the Iraqis to embrace a democracy/republic. Despite the fall of Saddam, the people will promote a government which requires the LEAST change in their lives. They want security, food, water, and prosperity, and the form of government which offers the least sacrifice and change is the one they will prefer, for now. How long did it take the Soviet Union to change? Somehow, we are expected to instill a new government in Iraq in record time. I just don't see it happening, but that is not because I don't trust the American leadership. Instead, my pessimism is based on the difficulty of the task ahead. For example, a government based on theology does not address representation of the citizens. The clerics are the final word. In a democracy or republic, they must decide a critical issue about how power is distributed, and on a lower level, do women get to vote? A democracy encrouches upon their culture. Not easy.

jurgen

[CJFusco]

"There is nothing I write here I would not be ashamed to say directly to your face, so I'm not hiding behind a computer screen. I love the concept of Socialism, but I changed face when I realized it thrives upon a utopian society, and of course my beliefs cause me to be labeled with stereotypes. Perhaps I am guilty of extending stereotypes, as well. "

That's exactly what I was saying; in my post I was asking you to explain exactly what you meant by socialism, for you seemed to be using it as a vague catchall term that is easy to throw around as a source of blame for any societal ill that one doesn't agree with.

Ok, so what's with the personal attacks on me just because I had the nerve to spell out etceteras? I don't understand peoples' motivations sometimes, and if you're going to dole out hatred toward others just because they have the nerve to appear intelligent, then I am not the one with a problem. I don't see striving toward intellectualism as a negative prospect, and I fear for a society when this distain for intellectualism runs rampant. Don't you think that if I were trying to "look down my nose" at you, I would have at least used correct grammatical form and included the commas between the etceteras?

Oh, and as far as "free" public schools go; your education is paid for by other peoples' tax money (you didn't pay taxes in grade school, did you?). This reallocation of resources so that one doesn't have to pay for a social service is the ESSENCE of Socialism. What the Soviet Socialists did wrong was a failure to privatize industry and agriculture, thereby not allowing healthy competition, and then the resources dumped into industry and agriculture eventually outweighed production. Pure Socialism doesn't work and neither does pure Capitalism, and that is why we (and Canada and England and France and every other Western civilization) have some aspects of both.

Now I suppose you're going to bash me for using logic?

[hoff944]

Don't whine and take things so personally and accuse people of personal attacks and hatred for petty things like "etc". Roll with the punches.

As far as using logic, we still pay for our own schooling, its just a deffered payment plan. How about vouchers for parents of kids who attend private school?

We are at the lowest point of a recessions not seen since the great depression, and our employment rate is around 96% while France, England, and Canada all have employment rates of 90%. England has been broke since the 70's. The United States also enjoy one of the lowest tax rates which is still too high. Germany, France, England, and Canada all have socialized healthcare which blows. They all have largers governments which in turn means more taxes. Germany, France, and England work on average about 5 to 6 hours a day once all of their government mandated breaks are taken. Less government = less taxes= improved economy = more jobs.

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by CJFusco
[BOh, and as far as "free" public schools go; your education is paid for by other peoples' tax money (you didn't pay taxes in grade school, did you?). This reallocation of resources so that one doesn't have to pay for a social service is the ESSENCE of Socialism. [/B]

Where does one draw the line, though? Do we all throw our money in a pot and just grab a wad when we need it? What's yourn is mine and what's mine is yourn. For better or worse, that doesn't sound like America. We are too materialistic, and we strive too hard for the American dream to give it up collectively. I feel the strength of America lies in the fact we have the capacity and ability to achieve any level of success. If we are automatically entitled to various resources, we lose the motivation to achieve. When individuals are forced to make decisions about their lives, they will evaluate cost vs. benefit. When an individual is entitled to a benefit, the concept of cost goes out the window. The populace suffers due to the waste upon one. So, under socialist health care, costs skyrocket and the individual takes without consequence. It's OK, though, because we're doing good, right?

I constantly hear about corporate greed and corruption. It is definitely an ill of capitalism, but that is the very thing that dooms socialism.

Quite simply, I'm caught up in your term "free." It makes me feel like I am getting something for nothing, and that is not the case.

Jurgen
without health insurance, but it is my own choice

[CJFusco]

Jurgen,
we are actually very much in agreement over the policies that you mentioned; it seems that we both got too caught up in semantics and terminology (my obsession with a more acute definition of socialism, and your getting caught in my not-quite-accurate term 'free'). Even in societies more reliant on socialistic policies, however, they hardly get something for nothing; they pay the price by lacking personal property and freedoms that we take for granted (I am referring to the ultimate extreme of the situation here, as seen in Stalinistic Russia).

Like you said, Socialism relays the idea of "something for nothing", and Capitalism, at its worst, sees corporations influence the day-to-day workings of civilization to further their own cause. I am not a proponent of Socialism - far from it - I am merely arguing that "socialistic" aspects are not necessarily negative, for they can help keep the Capitalistic greed to a minimum. Think of Capitalism and Socialism as the Yin and Yang of political economics.

And as far as personal attacks go, when someone insults my personality, my intelligence, ETCETERAS, I get insulted. I'm only human, and would personally find more tactful ways of getting my point across.

[DonDavis]

This is where it gets uncomfortable. I don't peruse or subscribe to more than 2 BBS'. I feel that it can be very easy to send an inaccurate message and set someone off inadvertently. Without the immediate feedback that takes place in a face to face conversation, intent can be lost and friendly jabs can be mis.........



ah hell, I was just screwin' with you.

I would really enjoy sitting down with CJ and Jurgen and sharing ideas and dreams, beers and fears.

But, I think Jurgen nailed it.... I need to spend some time in a P-car to get myself right.

I miss my car.

[CJFusco]

That is the problem with impersonal online conversations; tongue-in-cheek tones are often missed. I'm sorry for taking your friendly jabs a little too seriously.

And the beer sounds good, but I find it's never a good idea to mix alcohol with politics

[tabs]

I have documents that prove that CJFUSCO is out to bring America down for nefarious reasons......He wants to destroy the American way of life.....he..he... is in league with the French!!!!!


The Director Bureau of Information
and Minister of Tourism

[CJFusco]

That was not me in those pictures, and that sure as hell wasn't jenna bush with me. I swear!

[hoff944]

Given this new development I'd better jump on board. I want to be a hired goon that goes out and roughs up people like CJFusco that step out line.

hoff944: *knock kock*
CJFusco: Who is it?
hoff944: Hired goons
CJFusco: *opens the door* yes?
hoff944: *hits CJFusco of the head with a slap stick and drags him off to HQ for "repatrification"*

Okay I ripped that off the Simpsons but its still good stuff.

[CJFusco]

Hey i don't need repatrification... i love America just fine

[Milu]

Mr Fusco's name has been passed to Isabo at the Termination Office.

[Isabo]

Relax CJ.
If you're cute I'll load the firing squad guns with blanks

[Milu]

Here we are, developing an advanced and sophisticated political model and Isa ****s it up because she thinks CJFusco may be cute!

Isa, your daughter is probably older than CJ!

Cradlesnatcher!

[Isabo]

But is he cute?

[CJFusco]

judge for yourself... ah what the hell

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/me%20003.jpg