Oil

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by RWebb

also, oil use does not have to be reduced to zero; a level equal to that in the 1960s should be fine (if other GHG sources are also reduced)

https://www.ranken-energy.com/index.php/products-made-from-petroleum/

- the above doesn't account for the amount of refining to get each product (much less the fact that asphalt is a residue from other refined products)

Again, very few of today's refineries make asphalt as a byproduct or residue. Most convert it to fuel products.

Coking is a refinery process that produces 19% of finished petroleum product exports

Source: Reproduced with permission from Valero Energy Corporation.

Coking is a refinery unit operation that upgrades material called bottoms from the atmospheric or vacuum distillation column into higher-value products and, as the name implies, produces petroleum coke—a coal-like material. Exports of petroleum coke accounted for about 19% of the nation's finished petroleum product exports through October 2012 with most going to China and other Asian countries.

Petroleum coke has uses in the electric power and industrial sectors, as fuel inputs or a manufacturing raw material used to produce electrodes for the steel and aluminum industries. In 2011, the refining industry supplied 132 million barrels of petroleum coke with most of it subsequently consumed as fuel.

Two types of coking processes exist—delayed coking and fluid coking. Both are physical processes that occur at pressures slightly higher than atmospheric and at temperatures greater than 900oF that thermally crack the feedstock into products such as naphtha and distillate, leaving behind petroleum coke. Depending on the coking operation temperatures and length of coking times, petroleum coke is either sold as fuel-grade petroleum coke or undergoes an additional heating or calcining process to produce anode-grade petroleum coke.

With delayed coking, two or more large reactors, called coke drums, are used to hold, or delay, the heated feedstock while the cracking takes place. Coke is deposited in the coke drum as a solid. This solid coke builds up in the coke drum and is removed by hydraulically cutting the coke using water. In order to facilitate the removal of the coke, the hot feed is diverted from one coke drum to another, alternating the drums between coke removal and the cracking part of the process. With fluid coking, the feed is charged to a heated reactor, the cracking takes place, and the formed coke is transferred to a heater as a fluidized solid where some of it is burned to provide the heat necessary for the cracking process. The remaining coke is collected to be sold.

Like other secondary processing units, coking can play an important role in refinery economics depending on the type and cost of the crude oil run at a refinery. As the quality of crude oil inputs to a refinery declines, coupled with greater demands for transportation fuels, coking operations will serve to meet transportation fuel demands and also produce increasing quantities of fuel-grade and anode-grade or needle petroleum coke.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=9731

[sammyg2]

It's easy to tell if a refinery has coking capability.
The coke drum superstructures are some of the tallest and most obvious characteristics.
The number of drums determines the process capacity.

(4 drums):


(6 drums)

[red-beard]

Where is the Asphalt coming from these days?

When I was working in India, 30+ years ago, they had "cold" stored residual oil which was basically just asphalt. You could walk across the open storage tanks.

As a side note, one power station had a bunch of #2 (basically diesel) fuel oil peaking gas turbines. I cam in because they tested a unit and could not get it to full load. The pressure was very high and the relief valve on the fuel system was recircuiting more than half the fuel. Turned out, someone had refilled the #2 fuel oil tanks with #6 fuel oil. The viscosity of the #6 was causing the problems.

[RWebb]

renewable fuels like cooking or other used oil to diesel is limited, but not a pipe dream

do you know what type of renewable fuel they are claiming to convert to?

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Where is the Asphalt coming from these days?

Some refineries still make asphalt, usually just enough to keep up with demand to keep the price from going too low. It's generally not very profitable, just a
little over break-even.
Valero has a small asphalt plant in Wilmington, Ca, it's one of two local asphalt plants still operating that I am aware of. Note that we're talking the liquid material, not a pavement plant.


Used to be they'd tear up an old road and dump the material and replace it all will new.
Nowadays, they recover the old pavement and grind it up and mix it with a little bit of new asphalt, and recycle. that requires less asphalt than it used to.


Petroleum coke is almost always sold at a loss, around $175/ton which barely covers the handling. but it is a true waste product. The money is made converting the tar into higher value fuels.

Sulfur is also considered a byproduct of refining, but it can be a money-maker. Lots and lots of products are made with sulfur. Especially if the refinery has molten sulfur handling capability.

[red-beard]

They are converting to renewable fuels to participate in the Low Carbon Fuel Standard, which is a giant California mandated ponzi scheme. It is intended to make the cost of fuel VERY high, to benefit the environment, as only the rich will be able to drive.

I expect to see black market fuel stations popping up. Vans outfitted with 2000 gallon tanks to "buy" cheap black market fuel from AZ and Nevada and drive it over.

[GH85Carrera]

I was first car in line waiting for a train to go through the metro area. I watched 90 or so tanker cars all labeled "Molten Sulfur" and thinking dang I sure they don't have an accident as they moved along. Scary stuff.

[GH85Carrera]

Anyone that has ever driven in Texas has seen the Bucky's gas stations. They are HUGE!. I bet they have close to 100 pumps, 6 or 7 restaurants, and the mall like central area. The bathrooms look like something from an football stadium in size. People are pumping gas like crazy and driving on the way.

I just wonder how even one of those stations can ever change to any other form of fuel. It would take a large power plant to make enough electricity to charge 100 or more cars at once. Then add in the tons of 18 wheel trucks. Just mind boggling.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by RWebb

renewable fuels like cooking or other used oil to diesel is limited, but not a pipe dream

do you know what type of renewable fuel they are claiming to convert to?

Pipe dream means it is not a viable business model, because there is not enough raw material available to run these plants economically or be in any way profitable.

Marathon petroleum is also talking about converting it's shut-down Martinez ca refinery to renewable fuels, but there just isn't enough feed stocks available to keep these plants running at a rate that will generate enough income to pay for the operation.

At full capacity, Marathon would expect to produce about 736 million gallons per year of renewable fuels – predominately diesel – from such biobased feedstocks as animal fat, soybean oil and corn oil.

That is a plant that made half a million gallons of a fuel PER DAY before it shut down. And it was barely profitable at that high rate. That's why it was shut down, it didn't make economical sense to keep it running.
Now they plan to make as much fuel in a year as they used to make in a day and a half?? Won't cover the property tax.

They can fight over used french fry oil, they can fight over soy bean oil, they can fight over a few hundred bbls of algae a day, but the only way they can stay in operation is if the gubmint gives them truck-loads of $$$$ to operate at a loss.
That is in addition to the gubmint mandating the use of renewable diesel in the state at a cost of at least $20/bbl. I'm betting that's what they are counting on.
Now THAT will be an oil company subsidy. Bigtime.

And who pays for that? the consumer.
**** is gonna get 'spensive.

DISCLOSURE: I spent the last couple a years trying to figure out how to make this work.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I was first car in line waiting for a train to go through the metro area. I watched 90 or so tanker cars all labeled "Molten Sulfur" and thinking dang I sure they don't have an accident as they moved along. Scary stuff.

Molten sulfur is only 'bout 280 degrees F in the trucks (editted) and besides the sulfur dioxide rotten egg stink, doesn't pose much of a risk to the public.

The trucks on the highway that scare me (and I'm fearless) contain chlorine, sulfuric acid, or the worst, hydrofluric acid.
HF be bad.

https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/hydrofluoricacid/basics/facts.asp

[RWebb]

the guys here doing cooking oil to diesel are doing well - it is a simple process (I was able to convince a neighbor NOT to do it in his backyard)

they have 3 or 4 service stations that sell it

[sammyg2]

Note this is from an extremist activist group so is likely exaggerated for effect.
But I've worked in the HF alky plant at both of these refineries in my career and don't want to go near either of them again.

Injury and Death Maps
EPA “Worst Case Scenario” Maps Understate Dangers of Modified Hydrofluoric Acid (MHF)

The EPA requires refineries using modified hydrofluoric acid (MHF) to prepare an “Offsite Consequence Analysis” report estimating the effects of a “worst case” release of MHF.
Upon MHF release, a dense ground hugging cloud of hydrofluoric acid (HF) will form.
The two black circles on the area map below represent the official EPA reports “scenario maps” from the Torrance and Valero, Wilmington refineries. The HF cloud would originate at the refinery, in the middle of a zone. It would spread in a plume in the direction of the breeze. Wind direction determines which area inside a risk zone will get the most HF exposure. The cloud’s HF concentration, highest near the refinery, gradually declines as it drifts.


Map courtesy of Dr. Sally Hayati


The EPA uses Emergency Response Planning Guidelines (ERPGs) to measure toxicity.
The scenario map radius (black circles) is an estimate of how far the HF cloud would travel with a concentration greater than ERPG-2 (20 parts per million [ppm]).
Inside this risk zone, short-term exposure to the HF cloud (defined as one hour) could cause serious and irreversible health effects. Closer to the refinery, for the first 2.0 miles, HF concentration would exceed ERPG-3 (50 ppm). Inside this smaller zone, “life threatening” health effects (death) could occur with short-term exposure to the cloud.

These official scenarios are horrifying. A total of 615,524 residents within these zones live with the constant fear of death or irreversible and serious health effects if such an MHF release were to occur.

The cities most affected are Torrance, Redondo Beach, Lawndale, Gardena, Carson, Manhattan Beach, Hermosa Beach, West Carson, Los Angeles, Lomita, Long Beach, and Hawthorne.
The residents of cities outside the zones could also suffer health effects as the plume moves beyond, such as choking, burning eyes and respiratory tract, pain, and panic.
So-called “sensitive receptors,” such as grandparents, cancer patients, asthma sufferers, and our babies and toddlers, are not included in determining ERPG levels and would suffer health effects at lower concentrations than these levels indicate.

But it gets worse, because industry data show that these risk zones are grossly understated. It took a year-long investigation, but TRAA unearthed the data despite trade secret rights, redacted official reports, and a complete lack of cooperation or assistance from local government and regulators.
The two black circles on the area map below represent Dr. Sally Hayati’s estimate of what the scenario maps should be for MHF as it actually is, 93-94% HF, barely modified and no different than HF in dense cloud formation upon release.

https://www.traasouthbay.com/maps/

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Anyone that has ever driven in Texas has seen the Bucky's gas stations. They are HUGE!. I bet they have close to 100 pumps, 6 or 7 restaurants, and the mall like central area. The bathrooms look like something from an football stadium in size. People are pumping gas like crazy and driving on the way.

I just wonder how even one of those stations can ever change to any other form of fuel. It would take a large power plant to make enough electricity to charge 100 or more cars at once. Then add in the tons of 18 wheel trucks. Just mind boggling.

Buc-ees will get by. They have the best bathrooms and beaver nuggets!

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by RWebb

the guys here doing cooking oil to diesel are doing well - it is a simple process (I was able to convince a neighbor NOT to do it in his backyard)

they have 3 or 4 service stations that sell it

heat it, filter it, mix with methanol, done. But only in very small batches. Ok it's a little more complicated that that but not much.
The methanol is the dangerous part, big toxic.

But to do it on an industrial scale, there just isn't used cooking out on the planet.
Not to mention it cost about $10/gallon new in bulk .....

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

heat it, filter it, mix with methanol, done. But only in very small batches. Ok it's a little more complicated that that but not much.
The methanol is the dangerous part, big toxic.

But to do it on an industrial scale, there just isn't used cooking out on the planet.
Not to mention it cost about $10/gallon new in bulk .....

If you refine it directly from some oily plants, you can make it cheaper, but not cheaper than regular diesel fuel.

What you GET is a RIN, if you can show that the fuel was actually used in a vehicle. And, you can get a LCFS credit if you show that it is used in a vehicle in California.

Natural Gas is about $3/MMBTU. If you get the RINs for 1 MMBTU, the value goes to about $17/MMBTU for Renewable Natural Gas. The LCFS score on our landfill gas was not very high, but if we can broker the sale to a CNG station in California, it is worth another $12-15/MMBTU.

These RINS and LCFS credits are required to be purchased by the oil industry, which raises the price of delivered fuel. You're Welcome.

[pmax]

19 weeks !

https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/californias-petroleum-market

[Coverman]

If gas does get expensive in California drivers may have to resort to sensibly sized cars, in place of the unecessarily large commercial vehicles many currently drive.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I just wonder how even one of those stations can ever change to any other form of fuel. It would take a large power plant to make enough electricity to charge 100 or more cars at once. Then add in the tons of 18 wheel trucks. Just mind boggling.

When I did fleet work for a major shipping company, I was subconsciously perplexed by both the technology and the practices.
1). Why aren't trailers self-propelled using regenerative electric?
Start-stop. Huge masses.
Over and over.
That is where the major loading occurs, parts wear out, and fuel consumption is being used for the local delivery semis dealing with city traffic congestion.

Local service designs should be the opposite of long haul designs.

2). The trailer connection-pins are only about 5" iirc for taking the whole load shift forward and aft. The entire weight of the trailer plate sits on the tractor's 5th wheel and constantly rotates with every turn of the truck. That is a major friction wear point, Nobody in the shop was instructed through practice or policy to scrape off crusty dry grease and replace with fresh grease, and hardly anyone did it. There must be a better system to making this connection without losing grease off the sides of the road.

3). Overland tractor-trailers are still being built as square boxes despite spending much of their time at 60-80mph highway speeds.
Simple alterations could improve fuel efficiency 10-50%.
There are side skirts and a few have "trailer-tails" but those are weak band-aids.

[pmax]

Sure thing ...

https://www.rigzone.com/news/energy_sec_warns_oil_of_kodak_risk-29-apr-2021-165293-article/

Jennifer Granholm, the U.S. Secretary of Energy, has urged oil companies to diversify and not become the Kodak or Blockbuster of energy in a new video interview published by Politico.

“The bottom line is, you have got to move and you can’t hang on and be … the Kodak or … the Blockbuster video of the energy world,” Granholm told Politico in the interview, which was published on Monday.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Coverman

If gas does get expensive in California drivers may have to resort to sensibly sized cars, in place of the unecessarily large commercial vehicles many currently drive.

So glad you (and the gubmint) are there to make our decisions for us, otherwise we'd go around being free and doing what we want. Oh the horror!