New pocket spoon, way lighter!

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Jeff: I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Frankly, I am a big fan of the Mozambique Drill. I could present proof of shots to the face but it doesn't matter.

I am very familiar with this "Mozambique Drill". Not a "big fan", since I've never used it. Have you? What would make you a "big fan"?

While totally awesome in theory, I would defy you to show me, on film, in real life, anyone who has actually pulled it off. And yes, there are literally tens, if not hundreds of thousands of real life shootings caught on surveillance camera. Such is the age in which we live - the "virtual panopticon".

So, yeah, I'm always eager to learn, to enhance my knowledge with regards to firearms. It may save my life, or the lives of my loved ones someday. You tell me you "could" - so do it. I'll wait... Oh, and with all of the available footage out there, I would expect to see far more than the ubiquitous "example of one" so often used to "win" an internet debate. Again, at least tens of thousands of defensive firearms encounters, captured on surveillance camera, from which to draw.

If this "Mozambique Drill" is truly useful, is truly used by average self defenders, you should have no trouble showing us dozens of examples.

[Por_sha911]

Jeff: Your humility and sincerity to learn is an inspiration to us all. Because of this, I will post one example but I really don't want to waste your or my valuable time beyond this point. How about we agree that it is better to be armed than unarmed?

https://concealednation.org/2021/12/14-year-old-shoots-robber-in-the-face-who-was-strangling-his-mother-at-their-family-pizza-business/

[Bill Douglas]

Clever 14 year old. Saved his Mom.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Jeff: Your humility and sincerity to learn is an inspiration to us all. Because of this, I will post one example but I really don't want to waste your or my valuable time beyond this point. How about we agree that it is better to be armed than unarmed?

https://concealednation.org/2021/12/14-year-old-shoots-robber-in-the-face-who-was-strangling-his-mother-at-their-family-pizza-business/

I know you are being snarky and condescending, but that is fine. I understand the "rules" of these internet forums. Never conceded a point. Guys like you live by that rule. Which is fine, with the meaningless nonsense over which we typically argue on these forums. Our arguments, regardless of how "important" we fool ourselves into thinking they may be, have little influence on others. I'm comfortable with that.

It would be easy to self aggrandize and say "but this is more important - it could be a matter of 'life and death' for some unwitting observer". But I know better. It really isn't. The only thing about any of this that is "important" in any way is only really "important" to guys like you. "Experts" in everything you have never done, places you have never been, people you have never met. Yet, somehow, you are always "right".

Except, well, you failed in that regard in this particular example. This was not in any way this "Mozambique Drill" that you have told us you are a "fan of". Double tap to the torso, observe reaction, and in the face of a lack of any reaction (this is really a test to see if the subject is wearing body armor or not), put a round in the head. This kid did not do that.

He was a disengaged third party, and took advantage of the fact that the perp was busy with someone else. This scenario actually does play out on occasion, when a third party who is not actually engaged in the struggle has an opportunity to intervene, to "come to the rescue". In these cases, yes, a head shot may be possible, and it might be worth trying. This is, however, a very, very unique situation. And it is in no way an example of the "Mozambique Drill".

So, I'll ask you again - show us an example of this "Mozambique Drill" in action. Or at least show us examples of self defenders, personally under attack, who mange to shoot the perp in the face. On purpose. Like you have told us you would do.

So, please - "waste my time". I have plenty of it, I'm retired. And I am, in fact, in spite of your snarky reply, truly interested in learning. I really am.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I know you are being snarky and condescending

It takes one to know one. Have a nice day.

[KFC911]

I always have my Monkey Rolls handy when I venture out

[flatbutt]

All of this back and forth actually seems to indicate that unless you are able and capable of carrying a hand cannon you may as well carry a fake wallet, throw that on the ground and run.

[glewis80SC]

Great little pistol I go between that an my LC9 and G19...I put a Houge Handall Hybrid sleeve on it to help with gripping such a small gun.

[Flat Six]

I got my first CCW permit in Seattle, in 1992. Have carried concealed in WA, OR, CA, and NV since. I'm no expert, certainly compared to some others here. But I've learned a lot since then; here are my thoughts about choice of caliber and weapon (tactics, situational awareness, etc. for another thread):

1) I believe I should carry the most firepower (stopping power + number of rounds) that I can shoot reliably and accurately in less-than-ideal circumstances (low light, high stress, on the ground, injured, etc.).

2) I believe that whatever I carry should be comfortable, easy to draw, easy to re-holster, and doesn't print. If it's uncomfortable and/or inconvenient, I'm less likely to carry, and I believe being unarmed is worse than being under-armed.

3) I believe it's very important to have the ability to continue engaging until a threat is neutralized -- what Clint Smith calls 'continuity of fire'.

4) I believe -- at least for me -- there is no single weapon/caliber that is perfect; anything I choose will represent a tradeoff or compromise of the above. The best I can do is choose wisely and emphasize which of these is most important to me based on climate, wardrobe, assessed threat level, and -- increasingly -- my own physical limitations.

My first carry gun was a Taurus PT92, full-size 15+1 double-stack 9mm. Terrible carry gun, but what I had. Switched to Glock 23C, mid-frame 13+1 double-stack .40SW.

For many years I thought the Glock was perfect -- relatively easy to conceal, lots of stopping power, and super-reliable. But the more I trained the more I began to realize the weakest part of my self-defense 'equipment' was me.

With 155-grain HPs, the Glock (even compensated) was pretty 'snappy'. I shot well with it, given good fundamentals, a solid grip, and -- crucial for me -- good footwork. But things fell apart fast when I had to fire while retreating, shooting one-handed or (God forbid) with my weak hand. I could hit what I was aiming at with extra focus and concentration, but I believe that a self-defense situation would likely be anything but ideal conditions.

So now I typically carry either a S&W Shield (compact single-stack 9mm, 10+1 w/mag extension) or the Ruger LCPII (subcompact .380 6+1), in kydex IWB holsters. These carry easily with my wardrobe in this climate (Las Vegas). I can shoot either of these well, with either hand, while moving. I still train about once a month; I practice one- and two-handed reloads, slap-rack-bang, and usually carry an extra magazine (partly for continuity of fire, but mostly because I believe the least reliable part of a pistol is its magazine). So far, so good.

This is what I use now, and what I think will work for me for the near future. As I get older I notice I'm losing a bit of grip strength and developing some arthritis in my dominant hand. Getting old is a b***h.

This probably isn't the ideal solution for any of you, and probably not the ideal solution for me. But after some careful consideration -- and painfully honest assessment of my own physical limitations -- I've found the best compromise for me at the moment. I know I'll need to reassess every couple of years, and I'm good with that.

I hope some of you find this helpful as you think about which compromises are more or less important to you as you choose a weapon to suit your individual situation.

[fintstone]

I usually just carry a hand grenade because they fit my pocket well and it is hard to miss at close range. Stopping power is excellent. Unfortunately, they make a bulge in my pocket and when used, they create quite a mess. While I have AR15s and a shotgun for most self-defense situations I am thinking I need something a bit more conventional for when I go to Walmart (and rocket launchers are hard to come by these days). Maybe a 9mm IWB and a .380 "purse gun" in my shoe...and a big knife on my belt for close up work.

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I usually just carry a hand grenade because they fit my pocket well and it is hard to miss at close range. Stopping power is excellent. Unfortunately, they make a bulge in my pocket and when used, they create quite a mess. While I have AR15s and a shotgun for most self-defense situations I am thinking I need something a bit more conventional for when I go to Walmart (and rocket launchers are hard to come by these days). Maybe a 9mm IWB and a .380 "purse gun" in my shoe...and a big knife on my belt for close up work.

If that's what works for you . . . .

[fintstone]

LOL. I am still looking at a .380 or at most a 9MM because I don't think I would carry anything much larger. The gun you leave at home doesn't do you much good...and I have enough firepower to defend a small country there already.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by Flat Six

I've learned a lot since then; here are my thoughts about choice of caliber and weapon...

The entire post was articulated well and solid with level headed logic. +1 to everything you stated above.
Sometimes its what you learn after you know it all that counts.

[Por_sha911]

I personally prefer a 9mm to carry regularly. There are several good choices that provide reliability in a small concealable package. Ruger LC9s, Springfield Hellcat, and Glock G43 are among the smallest yet reliable offerings. For those thinking of CCW you need to do research as to what you are most comfortable with.

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

There is a difference between shooting a lean and athletic deer at 25 yards and shooting an punk perp at 5 yards. Everything has a purpose and a limitation. To say a .380 has no defensive value at 3-7 yards because it can't kill a mullie at 25 yards is apples and oranges. I normally carry 9mm +P but there is a time and a place for the .380.

I was thinking along these lines as well. I respect Jeff's knowledge tremendously, especially penetration vs expansion. But shooting through thick hyde, a dense layer of fat maybe and lean muscle is far different than shooting into a human, thin layer of skin probably still a dense layer of fat then into muscle.

Wild animals are very different than humans.

I enjoy watching Paul Harrell's videos on ammunition. I found these two to be very interesting.

[masraum]

Just a couple of thoughts, 380 is usually more expensive than 9mm, 380 is often harder to get than 9mm, and 380 has less power than 9mm (in a gun that probably has a very short barrel). I think there are 9mm spoons out there that are almost as easy and comfy to carry as a 380, so 9mm seems like a no-brainer.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by masraum

Just a couple of thoughts, 380 is usually more expensive than 9mm, 380 is often harder to get than 9mm, and 380 has less power than 9mm (in a gun that probably has a very short barrel). I think there are 9mm spoons out there that are almost as easy and comfy to carry as a 380, so 9mm seems like a no-brainer.

Concur.

[Jeff Higgins]

While many game animals are, in fact, far "tougher" than we are, many likewise are not. The most commonly hunted animals in North America - Whitetails, Mule Deer, and Blacktails, for the most part, are not. As a matter of fact, they tend to be a bit more lightly built on the average than we are, especially through the rib cage. While I have seen, and taken some truly large mulies (over 300 pounds), they average well under 200. Our coastal Blacktails average just over 100. Whitetails can be that small in some regions, but the big ones can hit that 300 pound mark as well.

With that in mind, I do think bullet performance on deer, at least, is a valid point of reference. It's the only one most of us will ever be able to make, so there is that as well. I would never suggest that a load that proves inadequate for, say, elk would thereby be ruled out as a defensive load. That would be silly. My experiences on deer, then, are what served to convince me that the marginal calibers, at least in my opinion, leave us too reliant upon shot placement.

Way, way back when I was an NRA Certified Instructor (my home club was desperate for them, so I volunteered), I wound up teaching a number of courses. Basic Rifle, Basic Pistol, Metallic Cartridge Reloading, Muzzle Loading, and Defensive Pistol. The first four were just basic safety and familiarity, essentially "how this stuff works". Defensive Pistol was an "advanced" course, with Basic Pistol as the prerequisite, wherein we went into "field application". All of the material was provided by the NRA - instructors had to follow pretty strict course curricula, as would be expected in an NRA certified course.

At about the same time, I went on a couple of wonderful "shooting vacations" with a couple of my shooting buddies, and attended both the Gunsite Academy and Thunder Ranch. As an aside, I would highly, highly recommend doing something similar for anyone as "into" shooting as it sounds like some of you are. You will have an absolute blast (pun intended). Spendy, yes, but worth every penny.

Where am I going with this? Both the course material we received from the NRA and the instruction we received at these two schools took the time to dispel the many potentially fatal "myths" surrounding defensive shooting. One of the more prevalent - and potentially dangerous - had to do with shot placement. We all know that LEO training stresses "center of mass". So did we, and for the same reasons - aiming for any extremity virtually guarantees a miss. It was surprising how many neophytes would come in saying things like "I'll just shoot the gun out of his hand". Or "I'll just shoot him in the knee and run". Women seemed to like "I'll just shoot him in the balls", and were particularly prone to saying things like "but I don't want to kill him..." as justification for shooting for the shoulder or something. And, of course, many people would tell that they would "just shoot him in the face".

The materials we received from the NRA, and the instruction we received at these shooting schools, both discouraged this nonsense in the strongest possible way, as does all LEO training in every agency in the country. The mantra was, and still is, to hold for center of mass and be thankful for any hits you can score anywhere on their person. This has to be one of, if not the most commonly stressed principles of defensive shooting.

So, yeah, believing that one can make up for an inadequate caliber with precise shot placement is a very, very poor defensive strategy, and one that is not just strongly discouraged, but is completely ruled out, taken off the table, by any reputable defensive training program. Adhering to it in the face of that, against the advice of those with some real world experience in the matter, is foolish beyond words.

So, with that in mind, my personal choice will always be a minimum of something that will provide full penetration through a human torso from any angle from which I am forced to fire. I have found that is what kills, but more importantly, stops. No, I don't need the heavy .44 mag or .45 Colt loads I use on game, and I'm not saying anyone does. But I do need something that will go through a man, and potentially one wearing heavy winter clothing. These little things just cannot do that.

[matthewb0051]

My daily is a Ruger LCP. Got it in trade for a Bersa Thunder and $65. It came with the pocket holster, Kydex holster, and Hogue grip.

The Hogue grip really helps fill out the your hand and doesn't add too much to make it print.

I even use the Kydex holster with sweat pants and the weight being so light it isn't a problem.

The only issue I have noticed is with a aftermarket magazine it has a feed problem. The aftermarket mag spring is much less powerful and doesn't seem to push the rounds up properly. There is also a YouTube fix for this.

[masraum]

I believe .380, 9mm, .38, and .357 are technically all essentially the same "size" (diameter). The difference is the cartridge, power and weight. .380 and 9mm are both really close to the same physical size. I believe the main difference is the pressure generated behind the bullet. A quick google seems to indicate that it's roughly 21k psi vs 34k psi (obviously, there will be differences between loads, then there's the whole +p+ and all of that stuff).

9mm spoons are generally larger than 380 spoons despite the cartridges being almost the same size. I assume that a big part of that is that there's more metal required to control nearly 75% more pressure.