Watch me flail with kitchen changes

[zakthor]

Pretty much these cabinets are our pantry and there's a free bonus counter in front of them. We need the storage and like the counter, just looking for better access.

Originally Posted by look 171

You doing this yourself?

I might get to help but spouse doesn't respect my precision and care enough for something like her kitchen.

Originally Posted by davidrivers

Roller shutter doors?

Possible but doesn't look like it goes well with rest of house.

Originally Posted by MFAFF

https://www.salice.com/ww/en/products/lift-systems-and-flap-doors/flap-door-systems/mover-flat-downward-sliding-system

Have used these vertical sliding mechs before... in a kitchen. Not the one in the picture however it was similar, vertical sliding white glass panels.

Decent quality and the visible parts of the slider rails were well finished.

Functionality-wise this looks solid. In my case there is no room above and no room below, I just don't think there's anywhere for the doors to slide vertically to.

Originally Posted by look 171

Hafele Sildo line will work for you. Don't install an exterior track. Hefele is a German hardware company. If your fancy kitchen guy don't have anything, check them out. It takes a bit to get them installed, takes a bit of experience but not too difficult.

Wow! A million yeses. That might be the secret name we needed. I'd want to see examples with my hands but gosh their web page shows a bunch of great stuff. Bunch of examples of what looks like great design. Wow. They have my attention.

Now calling around to see if I can find someone that is fluent in Hefele Sildo. Damn! Better than something home made.

[Baz]

Wow.......me want!

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Baz

Wow.......me want!

The kidney shape is good but not as good as the one I suggested above. They use up almost every inch of the corner. The shelves is square or rectangle, I should say. It folds and comes out toward the user. No more getting on all fours, cussing away while trying to fish out that large pot that only see day light once a year.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by zakthor

Now calling around to see if I can find someone that is fluent in Hefele Sildo. Damn! Better than something home made.

No need for that, but find someone that are precision and are not afraid to think out of the box and READ INSTRUCTIONS. I spec lots of their specialty hardware and when something new comes along, we read their instructions. I use their or Swizz made pocket door tracks often, smooth as silk, and never any issues. They are a pain to install the first time around. Get someone who is willing to take on the challenger especially having to deal with the door situation and the sliding trays all at the same time. It isn't difficult but lots of planning to the 1/16"

[LWJ]

My “peanut” double pivot corner is called a Kessebohmer.

(Edit: I see it was just posted. It is pretty cool and is very efficient for space)

[Baz]

Originally Posted by look 171

The kidney shape is good but not as good as the one I suggested above. They use up almost every inch of the corner. The shelves is square or rectangle, I should say. It folds and comes out toward the user. No more getting on all fours, cussing away while trying to fish out that large pot that only see day light once a year.

This?

[Baz]

Here some ideas.....with the lift up and barn doors at the end.......

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Baz

This?

Yes. Everyone that see them in client's home want one but they almost have to be installed during cabinet construction. It can be retrofitted but installer must be a contortionist as some point of the install.

[look 171]

BAz is correct. Lift up lower door on a track (use existing doors) when needed. Use a steel pin to hold up door when in use. no interference and cheap to fabricate. Anyone with a bit of wood working experience can do this, no more reading Halefa's instructions and complex installation methods. Unless you want lifting hardware instead of a small pin.

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by look 171

BAz is correct. Lift up lower door on a track (use existing doors) when needed. Use a steel pin to hold up door when in use. no interference and cheap to fabricate. Anyone with a bit of wood working experience can do this, no more reading Halefa's instructions and complex installation methods. Unless you want lifting hardware instead of a small pin.

I'm not following. I missed the baz quote.

You mean a hinge so base of doors lifts open vertically? Uh... not sure that will fly. But is great to have all these options. Top of top cabinet door is pretty high up there.

I'm skeptical that a balanced spring door hinge will age well and just forget some electrically powered thing.

What is crazy to me is how many many options there actually are to make the kitchen better without gutting the entire thing. This stuff is so clever but its not anywhere I've seen in person.

'Designers' I've talked to so far didn't seem to have much of a repertoire.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by zakthor

I'm not following. I missed the baz quote.

You mean a hinge so base of doors lifts open vertically? Uh... not sure that will fly. But is great to have all these options. Top of top cabinet door is pretty high up there.

I'm skeptical that a balanced spring door hinge will age well and just forget some electrically powered thing.

What is crazy to me is how many many options there actually are to make the kitchen better without gutting the entire thing. This stuff is so clever but its not anywhere I've seen in person.

'Designers' I've talked to so far didn't seem to have much of a repertoire.

I hate to knock them but designers are there to start new and get you a fantastic functioning kitchen but retrofitting or performing surgery to an existing kitchen isn't in their arsenal. They need to understand basic cabinet making to make it work. Plus, there's no money in doing little things like retrofit even if they understand the ins and out of cabinet making.

[look 171]

Picture a typical sliding closet doors only those are your cabinets doors and they slide up and down instead of sideways like a closet. A small metal pin keeps it from falling off onto the the counter. Simple

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by look 171

I hate to knock them but designers are there to start new and get you a fantastic functioning kitchen but retrofitting or performing surgery to an existing kitchen isn't in their arsenal. They need to understand basic cabinet making to make it work. Plus, there's no money in doing little things like retrofit even if they understand the ins and out of cabinet making.

I was thinking to ask you about these designers and their business silo. I'm getting pretty skeptical of these people. Had to be we had some sort of misunderstanding of the service they offered.

For some reason everyone we've seen about this has been utterly useless, don't seem to have any idea about wood or structure or how difficult a particular thing is. Like maybe lulling cattle to relax before they go in the zapper. They could only see in terms of everything new.

I couldn't tell what their angle was, they seemed to only be able to think in terms of the most expensive solutions. Move the doors? Extend the windows? Sunken floor? No way could their typical customers be so careless with money. Cuckoo.

I'm guessing the 'new kitchen' is all the profit and that's their raison d'etre.

Originally Posted by look 171

Picture a typical sliding closet doors only those are your cabinets doors and they slide up and down instead of sideways like a closet. A small metal pin keeps it from falling off onto the the counter. Simple

Oh I see, so the doors would overlap vertically? Why vertical instead of horizontal? Doesn't vertical imply a spring or counterweight to avoid lifting the entire door weight?

What are the negatives you see with the Hafele sliders? Looks perfect to me. Now that I've looked at their plans the Hafele sliding door hardware bears an uncanny resemblance to the fancy store display panels...

Man this has been a helpful thread.

[Baz]

There are plenty of folks who are handy with doing this kind of work but you have to beat the bushes a little to find out who they are.

Having been in the trades (still am technically) I know a LOT of guys who could do this kind of thing and if pressed they could refer me to others.

I don't know how it is where you guys are but here in Florida the building, construction & development industry is extremely strong and we're loaded with folks ready and willing to take on pretty much anything you want!

Of course, along with them there are plenty of companies who just want to demo everything and start over fresh.

Just do some digging......call a few builders....even architects.....or go to city hall building department even.

I'm not a big fan of social media but every day on Nextdoor there are people asking for recommendations for stuff. Just make notes of who is being recommended, maybe....

[Alan A]

We did a bunch of double full slide drawers in the base cabinets.
I wish I’d done them all that way.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by zakthor

I was thinking to ask you about these designers and their business silo. I'm getting pretty skeptical of these people. Had to be we had some sort of misunderstanding of the service they offered.

For some reason everyone we've seen about this has been utterly useless, don't seem to have any idea about wood or structure or how difficult a particular thing is. Like maybe lulling cattle to relax before they go in the zapper. They could only see in terms of everything new.

I couldn't tell what their angle was, they seemed to only be able to think in terms of the most expensive solutions. Move the doors? Extend the windows? Sunken floor? No way could their typical customers be so careless with money. Cuckoo.

I'm guessing the 'new kitchen' is all the profit and that's their raison d'etre.



Oh I see, so the doors would overlap vertically? Why vertical instead of horizontal? Doesn't vertical imply a spring or counterweight to avoid lifting the entire door weight?

What are the negatives you see with the Hafele sliders? Looks perfect to me. Now that I've looked at their plans the Hafele sliding door hardware bears an uncanny resemblance to the fancy store display panels...

Man this has been a helpful thread.

Tear 'em out and rebuild with brand new custom is how they make their money. Plus, they fail to understand how it will be used or its function. I found many kitchen designers or designers in general fail within this never ending quest. I have been doing lot of our own design work in the past 15-20 years. Now, just ask me to match the color of the living room curtain to the outdoor sofas in the gazebos in the back yard.

To be honest, trying to figure out what works for you take time and the required work is minimal so there's absolutely no money in it. A kitchen remodel with custom cabinets is upwards of 50-60k. A typical shop set up to make cabinets like ours can finish a set of custom cabinets in less then a week, that's about 15,000 worth of work and another 2-4 days to install. Doing that you need will burn half day in the shop, another two days to make it work on site. No one will pay 3-4k for anyone to do that. Some might?

You need to find a good old fashion finish carpenter that has a small garage shop to mill the parts needed and are good at messing with doors with plenty of knowledge of modern hardware. In the smaller towns, they just don't have the experience with modern hardware like Hafela or some of the complex European hardware. Again, they aren't difficult to install or make thing work, but the installer must be willing to read instructions. If you can't get them, I will order for you because they do not sell to just anyone off the street.

No need for counter weight. Its a simple old fashion system to hold the door up with a small pin through a hole. That door is half pound or as much as a mug with coffee in it, small and lifts easily. I think your best bet is to leave the upper doors the way they are and use the lifting mechanism for the lower doors. They only need to be installed perfectly level on both side to avoid any alignment issues. Use the existing doors but install new drawer slides. Hafela, Blum, Grass, Salice all make lifts.

If you decide to get fancy, use the Blum under-mount self /soft closing slides. You can slam them and they just soft close by itself. Its worth it with thee heavy items you have there. They are one of the few companies that make them in long lengths beside 21/22" or less. We only use them only because they are one of the best out there but not cheap.

[look 171]

forgot one thing pretty important, you need parallel lifting hardware not just swing out. Swing out will do the same thing you have now, get in the way of your stuff on the counter. This only require about 4-6" of space before the doors starts to go upward. It jsut sits in front of the upper cabinet doors.

I think it was Sugatsune that makes them. If you want to impress your wife, Sugatsune has one that allows the door to move up and slides into the cabinet, like a the old fashion TV cabinet doors that folds into the interior of the cabinets after they open.