Helping my friend out with his new "vintage-style" electric motorcycle company...

[john70t]

I love the idea especially with a hitch and capable trailer (ahead warning:everyone has their own great vision and 0-pinions).

But I foresee some potential problems ahead in terms of using it without some sort of registration and insurance.
I don't like any of it but that's the way it is.
You don't want to sell a few/dozen/thousand products, and then have people sue later on claiming it's illegal to use in their state.
Or this or that. Whatever. F'k them. But you still have to go at it with a bit of armour.

Patent trolls claiming to own the idea are mostly based in E. Texas and there is little protection against them.
Long video but worth it for any independent startup: https://www.thepatentscam.com/
-------------------------

So where does your awesome product fit in?
Exactly.
A little load test is needed to see what is out there...so you don't waste your own time and mental effort....on idiots and thieves.

(sorry to be slightly negative, but I would hope for you to be able to make a nice contribution to society in peace...your peace especially....make and sell...expand...enjoy..)
(This is a totally awesome idea and I love it)
----------------------

1). As a regular, full-on motorcycle, it would require all the license tests and state endorsement for the customer.
In that case limiting 'Modes' would be unnecessary to even start with..
-15mph is useless on all city streets except in the bike lane, which will quickly attract attention, and bikers complaining.
-A 'vintage look' moto is not going to be used off-road.

2). As a pedal-less "electrical bicycle" these are mostly limited to 20mph, not 15mph .
Not sure if pedals are required to qualify as such.
Again. This may change.

3). Any "electric moped" at least here in Michigan would be limited to 30mph.
Same registration and lower insurance, but no D/L license endorsement i think. That might be a selling point.
Other states might be the same if your plans are to go big...

https://www.michiganautolaw.com/blog/2023/06/05/michigan-moped-laws/
"Jun 5, 2023 ... Its top speed on a level surface is 30 mph."

[Wayne 962]

Thanks everyone for the comments. They are very good, as I told kenny they would be!

-Wayne

[kennybsanders]

Originally Posted by Wayne 962

Thanks everyone for the comments. They are very good, as I told kenny they would be!

-Wayne

I totally agree and have enjoyed all comments good and bad. I have come a long way with this but also always a student in learning new things and new opinions. I'm very thankful to everyone who took the time to comment, and again, thank you Wayne for the good words and post.

[kennybsanders]

Originally Posted by john70t

I love the idea especially with a hitch and capable trailer (ahead warning:everyone has their own great vision and 0-pinions).

But I foresee some potential problems ahead in terms of using it without some sort of registration and insurance.
I don't like any of it but that's the way it is.
You don't want to sell a few/dozen/thousand products, and then have people sue later on claiming it's illegal to use in their state.
Or this or that. Whatever. F'k them. But you still have to go at it with a bit of armour.

Patent trolls claiming to own the idea are mostly based in E. Texas and there is little protection against them.
Long video but worth it for any independent startup: https://www.thepatentscam.com/
-------------------------

So where does your awesome product fit in?
Exactly.
A little load test is needed to see what is out there...so you don't waste your own time and mental effort....on idiots and thieves.

(sorry to be slightly negative, but I would hope for you to be able to make a nice contribution to society in peace...your peace especially....make and sell...expand...enjoy..)
(This is a totally awesome idea and I love it)
----------------------

1). As a regular, full-on motorcycle, it would require all the license tests and state endorsement for the customer.
In that case limiting 'Modes' would be unnecessary to even start with..
-15mph is useless on all city streets except in the bike lane, which will quickly attract attention, and bikers complaining.
-A 'vintage look' moto is not going to be used off-road.

2). As a pedal-less "electrical bicycle" these are mostly limited to 20mph, not 15mph .
Not sure if pedals are required to qualify as such.
Again. This may change.

3). Any "electric moped" at least here in Michigan would be limited to 30mph.
Same registration and lower insurance, but no D/L license endorsement I think. That might be a selling point.
Other states might be the same if your plans are to go big...

https://www.michiganautolaw.com/blog/2023/06/05/michigan-moped-laws/
"Jun 5, 2023 ... Its top speed on a level surface is 30 mph."

Thanks for such a detailed comment. I'm aware of the Texas patent stuff. I still can't believe people do that on behalf of other extremely hard work.

As for laws in every state, it's definitely a big hurdle which is why I chose to do limited speed with the option of pedals in case it doesn't pass registration in certain states. I had an attorney write in the fine print on the website that before purchase it's up to the customer to do their own research on local laws in their area /state. A bit deeper than that but that's the short end.

[McLovin]

I have a vintage motorcycle and a few e-bikes, including the homemade 1500 watt death trap that I put together. So I’m not a prude when it comes to these things.

But my biggest concern would be liability, and US regulations which are certainly coming down the turnpike.

This product is basically the next step in what has quickly become the Wild West of e-bikes. Technology and cost used to limit them to being fairly sedate devices. No more. In my city, the high schools and streets are filled with, for example, Super 73’s. For those that don’t know, those are $3500-$4000 “e-bikes” that look more like a motorbike or mini bike than a bicycle. I don’t know the tech details, but I’ve seen kids easily doing 35 mph+ on them (slight downhills).

This current one is the next step in the progression.

The thing is, imo there’s no way this continues unregulated for too much longer. It’s currently an example of where regulations and legislation hasn’t been able to keep up with the speed of technology.

But it always does, and it will hear too. IMO, as someone who lives in an area where the latest tech e-bikes are abundant (you and Wayne live in similar areas), it’s obvious because there is so much recklessness and danger involved with these right now. For example, 14 year olds riding them like motorcycles, in the middle of the street, making left turns in major intersections etc. In other words, riding them like motorcycles. But with no training, no driver’s license, no safety gear, and skateboard helmets.

Then there’s kids doing wheelies on the streets and parking lots, etc.

The Nextdoor neighbor app is filled these days with videos of that, dangerous riding, etc. And more increasingly, pics of e-bikes being impounded by the police.

The other thing is it’s just common sense. A 4000 watt device is not a bicycle or e-bike, we all know that. It bears no resemblance to a bicycle or moped, and it will be regulated as what it is, I.e., an electric motorcycle.

I also believe regulation can come very quickly, and will, with a couple of high profile deaths and lawsuits. It’s a simple thing to do. I think the US (led by states that are likely your key market, like California) will simply copy what Europe and all of the EU has already done: To be an unregulated e-bike, it can’t have more than a 250 watt motor. Boom, just like that.

I’d also be concerned about liability, because I don’t think a simple switch that any user can flip and unleash full wattage and speed gives much protection. But I guess that can be shielded or minimized by a corporate structure and insurance. But my biggest concern is that the entire product is based on a loophole that won’t be around forever. For example, I doubt it will be legal even 5 years from now. It’s not a question of if, only when. (Depending on how much capital it’s taking to get this going, or if you have a possible pivot in mind, maybe that’s not a concern, idk).

I’d also be a little concerned about the market for something like this. To me (and this is just my personal opinion, as a vintage motorcycle and e-bike rider), it is neither a motorcycle nor an e-bike. It’s priced like a low end or good used motorcycle but can’t go on freeways or perform like a motorcycle, but it has the high profile and looks of a motorcycle so can’t go on bike paths or sidewalks. It falls in a gap that imo has a limited audience.

[Chocaholic]

Meanwhile electric automobiles are piling up in manufacturers inventories. I suspect the lack of charging infrastructure will be a similar obstacle for a machine with a 90-ish mile range. Also the time it takes to recharge. I didn’t read through all of this and I guess my comments are pretty obvious considerations.

A worthy pursuit nonetheless as long as reality, your expectations and business plan are aligned.

[Wayne 962]

Heading up to Monterey tomorrow - Kenny's bringing Old Soren!

-Wayne

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Wayne 962

Heading up to Monterey tomorrow - Kenny's bringing Old Soren!

-Wayne

You'll report back to us?

[greglepore]

Its very cool. However, I would echo the comments above about the multi modes. I don't know how a manufacturer would enforce it, but selling an unregistered e bike that is capable of 65 mph at the flick of a switch is likely asking for liability. I'd eliminate the "multi modes" and sell the bike one way or the other, with factory conversion an option-ie register it, and we unlock mode 3.
And yeah, regulations on ebikes are coming-too many kids getting killed on the 35mph ones, or killing pedestrians.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by McLovin

I have a vintage motorcycle and a few e-bikes, including the homemade 1500 watt death trap that I put together.

This build needs its own thread...

[john70t]

Originally Posted by greglepore

I don't know how a manufacturer would enforce it, but selling an unregistered e bike that is capable of 65 mph at the flick of a switch is likely asking for liability.

Completely agree with the above.

OSHA, ISO, ICC, UL, etc are not there solely for the protection of the user. It's also there to protect manufacturers from all the stupid things people can possibly do with a product. There is a reason every pen package has the language "Do not stick in eyeball". Some parent gives a 'bicycle' to a 10y.o. and then..

Bicycle. Moped. or Motorcycle. "They" will want to know fully when the time comes.
Many cities/states require full licensing and registration of even bicycles.

I get what the company is trying to do. An easy upgrade would be so nice, but that would require full tamper-proofing with proof of that. The originating advertising language is very important for your own protection. One instance and the company finances are stuck in court costs and someone could be injured. Given the random Li-ion battery fires these days, perhaps "must store and charge away from combustible materials" should be added to any sales agreement as well.

As a 'Moped' your design would be superior I think. A 2-step limiter for that would work. Big tires for safety. Add saddle bags or a locking storage box and it would be practical.

As a 'Motorcycle' there would be much more competition but you still have a unique design. Very cool.