Cabriolets at HPDE Events

[Jeff Higgins]

Our local Alfa Romeo club hosts HPDE events at one of our local tracks. I've ran with them for decades. They have an event this coming Sunday, so when I went to sign up, I noticed that they had, in big red type, that they no longer allow convertibles unless they have some form of aftermarket roll bar installed. I found this odd, since while I usually run my '72 911, I have on occasion brought out my 986 Boxster S. For 20 years they never had an issue. Now they say I would not be allowed.

The Boxster design incorporates the windshield frame as, essentially, a forward roll bar. Porsche is proud of the fact that they incorporated that into the design. My car also has the roll hoops behind the seats, which are also very much roll bars. None of this stuff is there just for looks, it is all fully functional as a part of the roll over safety package.

While I would never expect the volunteers at the Alfa club that make this all possible for us to understand the nuances of each and every car design, I would hope they would be open to input from knowledgable participants. I provided such input, complete with plenty of web links describing the Boxster's relevant features. Didn't matter. Flat denied. O.K., fine, I had already registered with the 911. This was all merely "just in case".

Our local PCA and BMW clubs still allow cabs with factory roll over protection. That seems the more logical, with the least exposure liability wise. I'm sure there is a broad variety of aftermarket products, some good and some bad, along with an equal range of installer expertise and attention. They do not specify which aftermarket products are acceptable

I wonder what might have elicited this change after so many years. Is anyone aware of any HPDE accident recently involving any make of cab wherein occupants were injured? I'm leaning towards a situation wherein they have had a leadership or committee change, and someone might be just a little too proud of something they think they "know".

The only reason I think that is because I think I actually met "that guy" at the track a few years ago, awfully proud of his knowledge of the "broomstick test". He insisted that, on my Boxster, it was roll hoop to front fender, refusing to believe that the windshield frame was actually a roll bar. When I was able to produce documentation that it was (found right there in my owners' manual, which I keep stored in the little pocket under the steering wheel), he grudgingly allowed me to go out. He was not happy to have been proven wrong, though. I wonder if somehow he got to be in charge...

[masraum]

"I wonder what had elicited this change"
Insurance updates....

[unclebilly]

The insurance at PCA HPDE events covers all Porsche models (including your Boxster). Other clubs may have different insurance coverage with different rules.

I know it raised a few eyebrows from some of our instructors (BMW guys) when I allowed guys in Boxsters and cabs to take part without aftermarket roll bars when I ran the HPDE program for our local club back in 2010.

Nobody would instruct in the 550 spider replica tho… I drew the short straw on that one. The combination of drum brakes, lap belts, and ultra flexible banjo steering wheel were absolutely terrifying. It was crazy fast tho, just terrifying and one of the experiences that made me quit instructing (I was a new dad then too).

[Jeff Higgins]

Having been involved with this for decades, along with other pursuits that require some form of insurance, I've gained a bit of insight into what insurance "requires" much of the time. Essentially, most of our local clubs get their insurance through the same carrier/underwriter. The policies are identical. The agent has no idea the difference between modern car safety features, especially when it comes to high performance cars suitable for track use. What I have found is that "our insurance requires..." is just a shield behind which the club staff mask their pet wants and desires. I'm almost sure that is the case in this instance. Think about it - would an insurance agent be more comfortable with a Porsche approved roll over safety system or an aftermarket one?

[A930Rocket]

I’m seeing it more and more.

From the Carolina PCA website.

Is My Car Eligible?
Generally speaking, any Porsche is eligible for DE events; however, there are always exceptions and variations due to liability issues for different tracks.
The type of transmission does not matter, manual, automatic, tiptronic or PDK are all welcome.
2. Hard-top Porsches (including Cayenne's) do not require additional roll-over protection.
a. If your car does have a roll cage, the bars must be padded in any area that may come in contact with the occupant(s) and their helmet(s).
3. Targas (including 914's) do not require an additional roll bar as long as you run with the OEM top in place. If you want to run without the top, you MUST meet all the requirements for open top cars listed in #5 below.
4. Porsche convertible rules vary by track, but in general they are approved to run with the OEM integral roll hoops, if so equiped. VIR has more stringent rules for all soft top vehicles. This includes Boxsters, 996 and 997 based Cabriolets.
a. Pre-2005 Boxsters, 996's and 997's can run at CMP with the OEM integral roll hoops however, they must have additional roll over protection to run at VIR.
b. 2005 to present Boxsters can run at both CMP and VIR with the OEM integral roll hoops.
c. Please contact the event chair at driversed@carolinas-pca.com for Porsche convertible specific questions.
5. For ALL other Cabriolets, Convertibles or otherwise Soft-top vehicles, these are classified as open top cars and must conform to the following:
a. The car must be equipped with roll-over protection that meets PCA Club Race or SCCA Race
b. The top of the main hoop must be at least two inches above the helmet(s) of the occupant(s), with the driver and/or passenger correctly seated and securely belted in the vehicle. helmets) must be at least two inches below a straight line drawn between the top of the windshield and the top of the roll bar.
c. The bars must be padded in any area that may come in contact with the occupant(s) and their helmet(s).
d. Cars with soft tops must run with the top up.
e. Drivers choosing to run with the top down must meet all the requirements for open top cars. i.e. race seats and harnesses, arm restraints and full-face helmets with shield in place.

Edit: some tracks, such as VIR, now require a fire suit, if you have stripped out the interior of your car. CMP and RRR don’t.

My 83 Mustang vert with roll bar at Road Atlanta in the 90’s. I probably wouldn’t do that again.

[Jeff Higgins]

It sounds like some of your local requirements are track specific. In our case, various clubs such as our Alfa club, the PCA, BMW club, Corvette club, etc. all share one track, Pacific Raceways. Some run multiple local tracks, but they all share Pacific. The rules are club, not track specific. In this case, only the Alfa club, who only run at Pacific, excludes all cabs. Everyone else allows Boxsters with the roll hoops, and probably other cars with other stock roll over protection.

[unclebilly]

PCA has different coverage than was available here at the time, hence all Porsches being covered. It was way cheaper too.

[Jeff Higgins]

I would think that whatever is available to the PCA would be available to the Alfa club, as well as BMW and Corvette. Maybe not, maybe the PCA has a bit more financial clout. They do seem to be better organized, with far more effort and support from Porsche than those other manufacturers. Maybe there is some difference there. I would think, however, that if they stand apart from those other manufacturers' clubs, then the Alfa club would not be the only one forced into this change. Again, they are our only local club to have stipulated no cabs.

[rfuerst911sc]

Jeff does the Alfa club make members sign a safety/damage/injury waiver to be able to participate in the event ? Or do you have to have " special insurance " to participate ? Seems to me this could be $$$ driven but I could be wrong .

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Having been involved with this for decades, along with other pursuits that require some form of insurance, I've gained a bit of insight into what insurance "requires" much of the time. Essentially, most of our local clubs get their insurance through the same carrier/underwriter. The policies are identical. The agent has no idea the difference between modern car safety features, especially when it comes to high performance cars suitable for track use. What I have found is that "our insurance requires..." is just a shield behind which the club staff mask their pet wants and desires. I'm almost sure that is the case in this instance. Think about it - would an insurance agent be more comfortable with a Porsche approved roll over safety system or an aftermarket one?

You may be correct about folks using that as an excuse.

But assuming an insurance agent is comfortable or knowledgeable enough to specify the best way to go about things seems pretty unlikely. And even then it may or may not be the agent, but could be someone deeper in the company that may not be knowledgeable or maybe figures "its easier/better (for the company) to err or the side of caution, so we'll make a blanket statement that will rule out some vehicles that would be OK in favor of also ruling out vehicles that aren't."

[Rtrorkt]

I had the first Boxster delivered in the DC metro in the day. Sold a 951 for it, big mistake, but that is another story. And am the safety chair for our local PCA region. The "broomstick" test is the simplest way to think of this. Put a broomstick from your the windshield frame to the highest part of the car behind the driver with the driver in the car. "The top of your helmet cannot protrude above the broomstick.

Don't know why the Alfa club allowed open cars with no roll bar to run. Also, arm restraints are recommended.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by masraum

"I wonder what had elicited this change"
Insurance updates....

Yup, just like them bailing on homeowner's insurance in California


Also why lift tickets for snow skiing are so expensive

[Zeke]

I'll bet your Boxster offers more rollover protection than your old 911. The question is, do cab owners drive with the top up or down? If down I think arm restraints should be required.

More: I wonder on a Boxster what kind of aftermarket roll bar would pass muster. Not much room there to bolt one on and practically no way to brace it unless the bracing went forward into the door openings.

I had a roll hoop with rearward bracing on my 71 S and the way it mounted was somewhat less than comforting. I think it was there to provide an attachment for the 5 point harness as much as anything. It sure was not an integral part of the car. 16 3/8ths bolts through maybe 5 x 5" plates bolted to the floor and rear fender wells.

[Chocaholic]

Lawyers and liability….in that order.

[gsxrken]

I’ve seen two rollovers on non-PCA track days. Occupants were sore but not hurt. It happens.

The worst crash I saw was in a fiberglass Cobra, although the roll bar didn’t come into it. After a few student laps, the instructor jumped in the driver seat, and obviously turned some hotter laps. At the end of Monticello, there’s a very long straight, 150mph+ if you got it, and then heavy braking into a switchback at 13/14; he must have put enough heat in them to boil the brake fluid b/c witnesses said he never slowed down for the hairpin at 18.

Helicopters, grim faces… made you think. I will forever more renew my brake fluid before an event.

[gsxrken]

Monticello MC (NY)

[faverymi]

Some local tracks around here don't allow any convertibles of any brand unless half/cage roll bar.

Regardless of the club renting the track

[cockerpunk]

having run many of these events ... all has to do with insurance.

nothing the organizers can do.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Zeke

I'll bet your Boxster offers more rollover protection than your old 911. The question is, do cab owners drive with the top up or down? If down I think arm restraints should be required.

I am sure my Boxster offers far better rollover protection than my '72 911. That is even with an Autopower roll bar mounted in the 911. Yes, the roof and roll bar work together in cars like that, but I bet the Boxster still offers more protection.

Cabs are required to run with the top up at every club's HPDE events in my area.

Originally Posted by Zeke

More: I wonder on a Boxster what kind of aftermarket roll bar would pass muster. Not much room there to bolt one on and practically no way to brace it unless the bracing went forward into the door openings.

The ones I have seen, from companies like Brey-Krause, replace the stock hoops and mount in the same location. The only difference is that they are taller. Some advertise that they will fit under the stock soft top, which makes me wonder about those that don't. Now we have met the aftermarket roll bar rule, but can't put the top up, so are not allowed on that point.

I really don't think the ones who changed this rule thought it out all that well.

Originally Posted by Zeke

I had a roll hoop with rearward bracing on my 71 S and the way it mounted was somewhat less than comforting. I think it was there to provide an attachment for the 5 point harness as much as anything. It sure was not an integral part of the car. 16 3/8ths bolts through maybe 5 x 5" plates bolted to the floor and rear fender wells.

I'm far more comfortable with that design than I am with the ones that have the diagonal braces mounted to the rear seat bottom pivot bolts, or to the seatbelt bolt holes. Those strike me as purely decorative, a fancier harness bar effectively.

[Jeff Higgins]

Well, I was mistaken. It appears the Brey-Krause "roll bar" is merely an extension that clamps to the stock Boxster hoops. I cannot believe something like this would pass muster at any HPDE event. No way on earth would I want to count on it. It looks like its sole purpose is to raise the bar to help pass the broomstick test.