What defines gender?

[unclebilly]

There is a lot of gibber gabber about the olympian boxers who are competing at Paris, it seems like everyone has an opinion about whether they should be allowed to compete as women.

[911 Rod]

I think all of us old guys will vote the same.
edit. I stand corrected.

[Tobra]

This leaves out intersex and Klinefelter syndrome. Intersex, I think Swyer's is like this, is XY genetically with hypogonadism and presents as female. They may or may not have puberty, typically sterile, may have some testosterone, depending on how under developed their gonads are.


Exceedingly rare.

[unclebilly]

Growing up, we had close family friends who adopted children because they could not have children. One of my childhood best friends was adopted and this was their story, I thought nothing of it.

I have a family member who is now 25. In her teens, it was discovered that her uterus had not developed and she would be unable to have children. I thought nothing of it apart from being saddened for her and her parents.

The Olympic boxing debacle got me doing a bit of google research. I think both of the above women have Morris Syndrome. Both are very much women, beautiful ladies but *I think* have the XY chromosome.

I *think* that the boxers have Swyer's but I am not a medical professional and only know what I do from a bit of googling...

Perhaps you have had women in your lives with the same situation but based on a scientific definition, are technically 'men'.

This situation could apply to any of our young daughters and we likely wont find out until their teen years.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Tobra

This leaves out intersex and Klinefelter syndrome. Intersex, I think Swyer's is like this, is XY genetically with hypogonadism and presents as female. They may or may not have puberty, typically sterile, may have some testosterone, depending on how under developed their gonads are.


Exceedingly rare.

Yep, the usual rules about sex (male|female) which would likely be XY vs XX and genitals/sex organs would not exactly apply to the rare exceptions listed above. But for everyone else, I think genetics and the sex organs that you were born with should rule the day.

Of course the big thing these days is that sex != gender.

[aschen]

The world is a complicated place, despite internet memes trying to convince you otherwise.

[Tobra]

It is dangerous for the XX person to step in the ring for martial combat with an XY person, in almost every case

XY genetics is male. The expression of secondary sexual characteristics is dependent on their gonadal function.

I do not know what the IOC, or whoever makes the rules for the Olympics is using as criteria, but I know I do not agree with what they used.

[Dixie]

I have not seen one single test that is proving that (the boxers are) transgender,” Van Der Vorst said."

https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-boxing-gender-382edf5dca7479f92e874cfd39375af1

In other words, so far the athletes' only guilt is being ugly.

And why isn't this in PARF?

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by Dixie

And why isn't this in PARF?

PARF is Politics and Religion. This topic falls into neither category.

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by Tobra

It is dangerous for the XX person to step in the ring for martial combat with an XY person, in almost every case

XY genetics is male. The expression of secondary sexual characteristics is dependent on their gonadal function.

I do not know what the IOC, or whoever makes the rules for the Olympics is using as criteria, but I know I do not agree with what they used.

I agree that from an Olympic standpoint, we need a level playing field and they should not potentially endanger other athletes so perhaps the XY rule ought to apply there, particularly for those with Swyers syndrome that could have an advantage. I’m not sure someone with Morris syndrome would have an advantage.

[Dixie]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

PARF is Politics and Religion. This topic falls into neither category.

Yes, I over reacted. I was expecting a bunch of derision regarding their looks. That hasn't happened.

[masraum]

I believe olympics/sports should be segregated by sex (not gender, if we're using the modern definition) to ensure a safe and level playing field.

I believe if I remember what I read/heard (and if it was correct) the governing body uses testosterone levels at a time of testing to limit participants from competing as a woman. So someone born with XX as a full woman, that for whatever reason, has high testosterone levels could be excluded, while a person born XY as a man (intersex excluded) with low enough testosterone levels could be allowed to compete.

I think the test has been in place and was a way to ensure that women weren't increasing testosterone in order to gain an unfair advantage.

These days, there are no issues and implications.

I haven't heard anything that stated that the boxer had been a man (maybe the opponent said it?). But that's being alluded to.

[Baz]

[Crowbob]

First I think the word is sex, not gender. Gender is the classification of how one addresses persons of a specific sex. ‘She’ is gender. ‘Female’ is sex.

One can present themselves or identify with gender, irregardless* of their sex. However, contrary to what is now generally acceptable, one cannot change their sex.

The chromosomes X and Y are not gender chromosomes. They are sex chromosomes. Wearing a red dress, heavy makeup and exaggerated mannerisms is gender.

It is common knowledge and widely accepted that to control language is to control thought. ‘Sex’ was displaced in the common vernacular so that the ambiguities about what one decides himself (or herself) to be is acceptable no matter their sex. Sex is irrefutable. Gender is refutable. Because the genetics of sex are indelible, social pressure is used to force conformity and acceptance of one’s preference to a lifestyle and to social interaction.

Society defines gender. Chromosomes define sex.








*Still not a word last I checked.

[masraum]

exactly right.

In todays climate, sex does not equal gender. I'm surprised that some folks are feeling the need to force a label with a rigid definition on things, especially the folks that are doing it. But that is what's happening. I'm happy with folks doing their thing and being whoever they are or want to be.

But I don't think folks should try to make gender (a choice) = sex (scientifically, not really a choice except in the rarest of circumstances). Even with reassignment surgery, the underlying genetics haven't changed.

And I'll add that in my opinion, most of the time using gender and sex interchangeably, is not a problem, but there are times when it could be vital to be clear and factually correct in the use of the words.

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

First I think the word is sex, not gender. Gender is the classification of how one addresses persons of a specific sex. ‘She’ is gender. ‘Female’ is sex.

One can present themselves or identify with gender, irregardless* of their sex. However, contrary to what is now generally acceptable, one cannot change their sex.

The chromosomes X and Y are not gender chromosomes. They are sex chromosomes. Wearing a red dress, heavy makeup and exaggerated mannerisms is gender.

It is common knowledge and widely accepted that to control language is to control thought. ‘Sex’ was displaced in the common vernacular so that the ambiguities about what one decides himself (or herself) to be is acceptable no matter their sex. Sex is irrefutable. Gender is refutable. Because the genetics of sex are indelible, social pressure is used to force conformity and acceptance of one’s preference to a lifestyle and to social interaction.

Society defines gender. Chromosomes define sex.








*Still not a word last I checked.

That is a very insightful post and not how I looked at this before.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Dixie

In other words, so far the athletes' only guilt is being ugly.

This is not the case.

He was prohibited from boxing as a female by whatever group sanctions these things outside the Olympics, recently, like in the last year or two.

We are already seeing young women having life changing injuries due to this. The Italian woman who tapped out after one punch connecting, may have saved her own life. There is a 17 year old girl that was going to get a scholarship to play volleyball in college who is now in a wheelchair due to this sort of thing.


This is not an acceptable situation to me; you?

[Dixie]

Originally Posted by Tobra

He was prohibited from boxing as a female by whatever group sanctions these things outside the Olympics, recently, like in the last year or two.

Read the AP new story I linked. The athlete was banned from a prior event based on testosterone levels.

The IOC and World Boxing, who have done testing, say she's not trans. A man in CA, based on nothing, claims she's a he.

The problem is, you're disparaging a person you've never met, with inaccurate information your bias created.

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by Dixie

Read the AP new story I linked. The athlete was banned from a prior event based on testosterone levels.

The IOC and World Boxing, who have done testing, say she's not trans. A man in CA, based on nothing, claims she's a he.

Actually, a medical doctor in California using a the clinical definition says she’s male.

It isn’t how I see things either but Tobra is technically correct. I’ve learned a lot this morning.

[Dixie]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

Actually, a medical doctor in California using a the clinical definition says she’s male.

He's still never seen her, or tested her. He has nothing but conjecture. I don't think that speaks well of the doctor.