What defines gender?

[RANDY P]

Well, if competitors want to believe the nonsense that putting on a skirt and abusing hormones makes you a woman- go ahead.

Let them all get clobbered by guys. People will tune out anyhow, and then shortly thereafter there will be no more woman's sports.

Problem solved.

rjp

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Dixie

Honest question, where did you read that these boxers are intersex? I googled the question, and to my surprise can only find that they're *not* intersexed.

I'd also appreciate your sharing any references to the testing the IBF performed. Like you, I read the IBF ruled they're not females, but I also read repeatedly the IBF lacked transparency on how they decided. That very lack of transparency is why the IOC now relies on WB, and not the IBF.

Almost every article I have read indicates that: "Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu‑ting of Taiwan had been disqualified from the 2023 Women's World Championships with the International Boxing Association president, Umar Kremlev, claiming that DNA test had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded.”"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2024/08/01/olympic-gender-testing-boxers/74615354007/

Simply search for: “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded."

The IBA tested and the IOC simply ignored the issue...so I think I would stick with the IBA decision.

The IOC did not test so they have no criteria other than passport...which does not indicate chromosomes or testosterone levels (or anything at all). Claiming that a body that tests "lacks transparency" by a body that chooses to not do anything to determine eligibility is pretty lame and the fact that the media falls behind such nonsense is pretty typical for social and progressive issues.

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by Alan A

Then I suggest adult literacy classes. And something to remove the chip on your shoulder.


I pasted that the IBA found XY chromosomes. By every definition known that makes this person a man. That’s simple genetics, nothing to do with looks.

Actually if you define a man as someone born with a penis and a woman as someone born with a vagina, then these are clearly women depute having the XY chromosome.

This is the crux of this thread.

[unclebilly]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

Well, if competitors want to believe the nonsense that putting on a skirt and abusing hormones makes you a woman- go ahead.

Let them all get clobbered by guys. People will tune out anyhow, and then shortly thereafter there will be no more woman's sports.

Problem solved.

rjp

But they aren’t doing that. That is fake news.

These competitors were born with vaginas, raised as girls, went through puberty as girls, and happen to have a birth defect, specifically they have the XY chromosome so their ovaries won’t develop.

[Alan A]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

Actually if you define a man as someone born with a penis and a woman as someone born with a vagina, then these are clearly women depute having the XY chromosome.

This is the crux of this thread.

I don’t. I prefer genes - they can’t be swapped out quite so easily.

[Crowbob]

Try as one might to make it so, XY chromosomes is not a birth defect. It’s being born male.

A person with XY and no man parts is still XY and still male. A person with XY no matter what performance parts or octane boosters he has or has not is still male.

[Dixie]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Simply search for: “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded."

Huh, I read the articles and thought, why wouldn't the IBA say how they tested? Did they just look at them and decide? How could World Boxing's subsequent testing, performed on behalf of the IOC, determine they don't have XY chromosomes?

Based on essential the same articles, I decided the IBA didn't test and wants to cover that up. You decided the IOC purposely ignored the IBA's testing so men can clandestinely compete in women's boxing.

Maybe in time we'll both know more and can reevaluate our stance.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Alan A

I don’t. I prefer genes - they can’t be swapped out quite so easily.

Exactly.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Alan A

I don’t. I prefer genes - they can’t be swapped out quite so easily.

Jeans are swapped out very easily. Date night? Get those Levi's off and slip on the dragon ass jeans to impress.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Dixie

Huh, I read the articles and thought, why wouldn't the IBA say how they tested? Did they just look at them and decide? How could World Boxing's subsequent testing, performed on behalf of the IOC, determine they don't have XY chromosomes?

Based on essential the same articles, I decided the IBA didn't test and wants to cover that up. You decided the IOC purposely ignored the IBA's testing so men can clandestinely compete in women's boxing.

Maybe in time we'll both know more and can reevaluate our stance.

The national boxing federations of Algeria and Taiwan are still members of the IBA...so the governing body of both athletes fall under the IBA.

The IOC largely is angered at the IBA due to the fact that they refused to ban Russians from competition (due to Ukraine) as the IOC requested.

Subsequent testing? Please provide info on the testing done by the WBA or the IOC. So far, the only one claiming to have done DNA Testing is the IBA through an independent lab that indicated XY. My understanding is that World Boxing has not published standards and did not test athletes. They are simply businessmen trying to wrest control of tournaments the IBA for financial reasons.

[911Ghia]

http://https://www.simplypsychology.org/david-reimer.html

[Superman]

Originally Posted by masraum

exactly right.

In todays climate, sex does not equal gender. I'm surprised that some folks are feeling the need to force a label with a rigid definition on things, especially the folks that are doing it. But that is what's happening. I'm happy with folks doing their thing and being whoever they are or want to be.

But I don't think folks should try to make gender (a choice) = sex (scientifically, not really a choice except in the rarest of circumstances). Even with reassignment surgery, the underlying genetics haven't changed.

And I'll add that in my opinion, most of the time using gender and sex interchangeably, is not a problem, but there are times when it could be vital to be clear and factually correct in the use of the words.

Steve is right again. Sex parts are usually compatible with how we identify who we are, but not always. We know that we don't get to choose what sex parts we came with, but I think some folks don't know that often (usually and maybe invariably) we also don't get to choose how we identify ourselves. Two boys growing up together....one might identify as female but not the other. Similarly, two girls..... Same environment. And this "identity" shows up VERY early. The parents always know before the child does.

So yeah....things, and especially people, just don't fit as neatly into boxes as some folks imagine. On the poll, I voted "It's Complicated."

[Superman]

Also, blaming and judging are more fun for some than for others.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

But they aren’t doing that. That is fake news.

These competitors were born with vaginas, raised as girls, went through puberty as girls, and happen to have a birth defect, specifically they have the XY chromosome so their ovaries won’t develop.

I don't think you can say that a person with XY chromosomes went through puberty as a girl. That is part of the issue I have.

Dixie, tell me more about this, "safety canard."

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Superman

Also, blaming and judging are more fun for some than for others.

It is pretty easy to blame (and judge) the (very political) IOC that allowed these two to compete...choosing not to test knowing these two had failed earlier tests and were disqualified by their own country's governing body.

[Steve Carlton]

Andy was funny and different.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Superman

Also, blaming and judging are more fun for some than for others.

I think we are all being pretty adult like.

I like Crowbob's comment yesterday. That was good info.

I'm still a little confused on the subject boxer.

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by Dixie

. . .

PS, I'm tired of the women's safety canard. Boxing is broken into classes to minimize disparities, including gender.

The reasons for having fighting sports being broken into classes, including sex segregated, are sound and to allow the sidestepping of such regulations, via transgender inclusion directives or allowing for rare, physical abnormalities, poses a real threat to women on the receiving end of strikes from males or combined sex individuals with male attributes (as FintIsStoneD mentioned earlier), whether you have become tired of the subject or not.

Take for example this fairly recent, small study on male 'v' female punching power, which concluded, "But even with roughly uniform levels of fitness, the males' average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females', with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman".

https://phys.org/news/2020-02-males-powerful.html


Here is a study comparing strength in general, between male and female athletes, which again reinforces why born-as/biological males need to be kept out of all female sports that involve such things as strength/power, speed, and endurance, not just contact sports.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7930971/

[unclebilly]

I troubled by this whole thing… still.

I look at photos of my cousins daughter and she ain’t no man. I held her in my arms as a baby, I watched her grow up from afar. She is now a beautiful woman in her mid 20s.

She may have the XY chromosome, and her inner womanly parts didn’t develop, but she is about as girly as girly gets. Nobody could pick her out of a crowd as a man.

[Synchro Joe]

Under normal development in all placental mammals, including humans, a male has XY chromosomes, and he will develop and at some point have testes, a prostate, and a penis. A female, under normal development, has XX chromosomes, and she will develop and at some point have a uterus, ovaries, a cervix, and a vagina. Barring a disorder or disruption, a female can carry, give birth to, and nurse offspring at some point during her life cycle. A male cannot. Males and females also differ in the prevalence of hormones such as testosterone and estrogen, respectively, and develop distinct secondary anatomical differences under the influence of these hormones, especially during puberty.

A human male is, minimally, a member of the human species who, under normal development, produces relatively small, mobile gametes—sperm—at some point in his life cycle, and has a reproductive and endocrine system oriented around the production of that gamete. A human female is, minimally, a member of the human species who, under normal development, produces relatively large, relatively immobile gametes—ova—at some point in her life cycle, and has a reproductive and endocrine system oriented around the production of that gamete. This is why, in almost all cases, the presence of such features is sufficient to conclude that a newborn is either male or female. Sex in almost all cases is easily observed, not “assigned.