What defines gender?
 

There is a lot of gibber gabber about the olympian boxers who are competing at Paris, it seems like everyone has an opinion about whether they should be allowed to compete as women.

I think all of us old guys will vote the same.
edit. I stand corrected.

This leaves out intersex and Klinefelter syndrome. Intersex, I think Swyer's is like this, is XY genetically with hypogonadism and presents as female. They may or may not have puberty, typically sterile, may have some testosterone, depending on how under developed their gonads are.


Exceedingly rare.

Growing up, we had close family friends who adopted children because they could not have children. One of my childhood best friends was adopted and this was their story, I thought nothing of it.

I have a family member who is now 25. In her teens, it was discovered that her uterus had not developed and she would be unable to have children. I thought nothing of it apart from being saddened for her and her parents.

The Olympic boxing debacle got me doing a bit of google research. I think both of the above women have Morris Syndrome. Both are very much women, beautiful ladies but *I think* have the XY chromosome.

I *think* that the boxers have Swyer's but I am not a medical professional and only know what I do from a bit of googling...

Perhaps you have had women in your lives with the same situation but based on a scientific definition, are technically 'men'.

This situation could apply to any of our young daughters and we likely wont find out until their teen years.

Yep, the usual rules about sex (male|female) which would likely be XY vs XX and genitals/sex organs would not exactly apply to the rare exceptions listed above. But for everyone else, I think genetics and the sex organs that you were born with should rule the day.

Of course the big thing these days is that sex != gender.

The world is a complicated place, despite internet memes trying to convince you otherwise.

It is dangerous for the XX person to step in the ring for martial combat with an XY person, in almost every case

XY genetics is male. The expression of secondary sexual characteristics is dependent on their gonadal function.

I do not know what the IOC, or whoever makes the rules for the Olympics is using as criteria, but I know I do not agree with what they used.

I have not seen one single test that is proving that (the boxers are) transgender,” Van Der Vorst said."

https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-boxing-gender-382edf5dca7479f92e874cfd39375af1

In other words, so far the athletes' only guilt is being ugly.

And why isn't this in PARF?

PARF is Politics and Religion. This topic falls into neither category.

I agree that from an Olympic standpoint, we need a level playing field and they should not potentially endanger other athletes so perhaps the XY rule ought to apply there, particularly for those with Swyers syndrome that could have an advantage. I’m not sure someone with Morris syndrome would have an advantage.

:confused: Yes, I over reacted. I was expecting a bunch of derision regarding their looks. That hasn't happened.

I believe olympics/sports should be segregated by sex (not gender, if we're using the modern definition) to ensure a safe and level playing field.

I believe if I remember what I read/heard (and if it was correct) the governing body uses testosterone levels at a time of testing to limit participants from competing as a woman. So someone born with XX as a full woman, that for whatever reason, has high testosterone levels could be excluded, while a person born XY as a man (intersex excluded) with low enough testosterone levels could be allowed to compete.

I think the test has been in place and was a way to ensure that women weren't increasing testosterone in order to gain an unfair advantage.

These days, there are no issues and implications.

I haven't heard anything that stated that the boxer had been a man (maybe the opponent said it?). But that's being alluded to.

First I think the word is sex, not gender. Gender is the classification of how one addresses persons of a specific sex. ‘She’ is gender. ‘Female’ is sex.

One can present themselves or identify with gender, irregardless* of their sex. However, contrary to what is now generally acceptable, one cannot change their sex.

The chromosomes X and Y are not gender chromosomes. They are sex chromosomes. Wearing a red dress, heavy makeup and exaggerated mannerisms is gender.

It is common knowledge and widely accepted that to control language is to control thought. ‘Sex’ was displaced in the common vernacular so that the ambiguities about what one decides himself (or herself) to be is acceptable no matter their sex. Sex is irrefutable. Gender is refutable. Because the genetics of sex are indelible, social pressure is used to force conformity and acceptance of one’s preference to a lifestyle and to social interaction.

Society defines gender. Chromosomes define sex.








*Still not a word last I checked.

exactly right.

In todays climate, sex does not equal gender. I'm surprised that some folks are feeling the need to force a label with a rigid definition on things, especially the folks that are doing it. But that is what's happening. I'm happy with folks doing their thing and being whoever they are or want to be.

But I don't think folks should try to make gender (a choice) = sex (scientifically, not really a choice except in the rarest of circumstances). Even with reassignment surgery, the underlying genetics haven't changed.

And I'll add that in my opinion, most of the time using gender and sex interchangeably, is not a problem, but there are times when it could be vital to be clear and factually correct in the use of the words.

That is a very insightful post and not how I looked at this before.

This is not the case.

He was prohibited from boxing as a female by whatever group sanctions these things outside the Olympics, recently, like in the last year or two.

We are already seeing young women having life changing injuries due to this. The Italian woman who tapped out after one punch connecting, may have saved her own life. There is a 17 year old girl that was going to get a scholarship to play volleyball in college who is now in a wheelchair due to this sort of thing.


This is not an acceptable situation to me; you?

Read the AP new story I linked. The athlete was banned from a prior event based on testosterone levels.

The IOC and World Boxing, who have done testing, say she's not trans. A man in CA, based on nothing, claims she's a he.

The problem is, you're disparaging a person you've never met, with inaccurate information your bias created.

Actually, a medical doctor in California using a the clinical definition says she’s male.

It isn’t how I see things either but Tobra is technically correct. I’ve learned a lot this morning.

He's still never seen her, or tested her. He has nothing but conjecture. I don't think that speaks well of the doctor.

I am a DPM not an MD

Perhaps Dixie would be so kind as to point out how I have disparaged anyone.

You did not respond to anything I actually said. It appears your response may be colored by your own biases, n'est pas?

Spot on....

As for whatever people want to do with their bodies and how they want to dress up, have at it....once you are an adult defined as being over age 18. I reserve the right to laugh.

How I address people is completely my choice....no one picks my words for me and no one tells me what I should call anything. I will make my own determination at all times.....

As for Olympics or sport. Definition ought to be XX's compete with each other, XY's compete with each other and zero other choices.

D.

She ain't no Mike Tyson.

She has had 50 womens amateur fights. She has a 13.51% knock out rate. She has lost 9 of those 50. Not a single one of her opponents has died.
https://boxrec.com/en/box-am/899786

I still think she has an unfair advantage and shouldn't be boxing against women.

My god.

Do you even understand that being born with a vagina and XY chromosomes is not a choice? This is a birth defect that most of these girls don’t even know they have until puberty. These are not freaks. I think you should read up on this condition and reevaluate your position on this.

To answer your incorrectly punctuated question, these ‘freaks’ (your words) are born that way. The odds are 1/21000.

One thing is clear they shouldn't let that genetic freak simone biles compete. 4'8" hope they have checked her for every condition that could lead to such an improbable healthy height.


The only thing I am sure of, is not to trust anybody who is sure on this issue.

I don't know about this particular boxer past what I've seen in this thread or what I found in the link below. It certainly doesn't sound like the boxer is a monster with a wildly unfair advantage.

https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-imane-khelif-boxing-paris-2eb07d442ffb29a61e09911884dcdaa9

Thank you, kind sir.

It’s what I try to do.

The fact that nobody has actually died yet does not mean all is well with this nonsense.

This is not the same thing as the transgender issue, but it presents a very similar problem. How many young women will have to be crippled or killed before it stops?

You saw this right?

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cye0ex43k63o


The Russian-led IBA said Khelif "failed to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in the women's competition, as set and laid out in the IBA regulations".

According to the IBA's regulations: "Boxers will compete against boxers of the same gender, meaning women vs women and men vs men as per the definitions of these rules.

The IBA defines a woman, female or girl as "an individual with chromosome XX" and men, males or boys as "an individual with chromosome XY".

The IBA denied Khelif's testosterone levels had been tested.

===

There’s also another article in somewhere fairly reputable that says a genetic test was done and it detected XY chromosomes. Too lazy to trawl for it.

The best part of this is the idea that it is a woman that defends the right of men to beat up women. No wonder this has been allowed to spread…

The IOC did not test. They claim they will accept whatever sex is on one's passport. The IBA did test.

The topic here is remarkably simple and only made complex by those who are not familiar with the realities of fighting/combat sports, or maybe reality in general.

When the goal of the sport is to defeat your opponent by way of delivering more damage than one receives, the playing field must be as level as possible to be even remotely fair and reasonably safe ; this includes such things as weight, sex/gender (one in the same to me, in this context), and skill level (such as, you will not see a reginal beginner in MMA given the go-ahead to fight on a UFC card where he or she will needlessly suffer humiliation and likely some life altering injuries - same goes for the lesser sport of boxing - Higgins, are you there?!?! :D).

This is why it is absurd to sanction cross-sex fighting events, via transgender or mutation at the hands of Mother Nature, in the name of inclusion, social activism, etc. Like I noted in the Olympics thread in PARF, a fighting sport is not the platform to accommodate metal or physical abnormalities, when the opponents well being will be under greater threat than is acceptable under normal circumstances in that sport.

This isn’t about sports… it’s about what makes a boy a boy and a girl a girl…

The controversy in Paris merely brings it to the forefront.

If you had a child born with a vagina, and when that child turned 15 still hadn’t had a period, you got some testing done and a cat scan and discovered that your child has no ovaries or uterus… a subsequent blood test shows the XY chromosome… is your child a boy or a girl? That’s the question at play here.

^^^

Sorry, I got wrapped up in the sports part of it and forgot the actual subject of your thread.

I do not know the answer to that, however - certainly a trouble thing to consider/think about.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1722658476.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1722658476.jpg

While a person with XY chromosomes that identifies as a woman might well be considered a woman, in the context of sports, she should be considered much like a heavyweight wanting to compete in a bantam weight class or an adult wanting to play little league. Ineligible. Otherwise, you essentially end the ability for women to compete on sports (just as allowing those born male to play women's sports). There is a reason why there are different categories (that are not entirely social). It is also why doping/drug enhancement should not be allowed.

I read your post, and this is what I hear. She looks manly, so she must be trans. I swear, if that boxer looked like Cheryl Tiegs you'd be singing her praises.

I do agree with Tobra that this isn't about trans, but it's similar. The question becomes, at what point does someone's anomalies become unfair? No one claims it's unfair to be a tall basketball player. And no one claims it's unfair that Mark Spitz produced half the lactic acid of other athletes. Yet a female born boxer with male attributes is unfair. Why is that one unfair, and not the other two?

Maybe the solution is an athlete's anomalies can't be unique to less than 1% of the population. I wonder how many athletes that would eliminate?

Perhaps the best solution is to have this forum review photos of all athletes. Any men that look too girly, and women that look too manly, are immediately disqualified. Gender be damned. ;)

PS, I'm tired of the women's safety canard. Boxing is broken into classes to minimize disparities, including gender.

I really don't understand the trans argument as no one has advanced that here...unless that just makes your position easier to argue.

Yes, size does matter in basketball and football...and gives very tall, large players an advantage. Of course, an 8ft basketball player is essentially unfair to 5 ft tall players. Those sports (and controlling bodies) have decided to accept the disparity that essentially excludes smaller folks at high levels of play. Of course, a female that has been born with male attributes is unfair in many sports.

Boxing has not normally allowed men or women with male attributes (XY), nor has the controlling body for boxing (which disqualified these two women). The IOC decided to do so on their own to make a political statement (knowing these two were disqualified by the IBA). Yes, allowing men (or women with male attributes) is incredibly dangerous to women as males have far, far superior striking power/ability. It is generally why women and men compete separately (that and women would rarely win (or even make it to the Olympics if the competed with men).

Then I suggest adult literacy classes. And something to remove the chip on your shoulder.


I pasted that the IBA found XY chromosomes. By every definition known that makes this person a man. That’s simple genetics, nothing to do with looks.

Honest question, where did you read that these boxers are intersex? I googled the question, and to my surprise can only find that they're *not* intersexed.

I'd also appreciate your sharing any references to the testing the IBF performed. Like you, I read the IBF ruled they're not females, but I also read repeatedly the IBF lacked transparency on how they decided. That very lack of transparency is why the IOC now relies on WB, and not the IBF.

The answer is simple really. Male Sports if you have an Outty, Female Sports if you have an Inny, and a "other" unlimited class where you can run whatever yah brung.