(OT) What do you think of the new Ford GT

[doorman930]

Hey everyone,

I was just curious what you thought of the new Ford GT. I work for an auto supplier and I currently am responsible for several parts on the car. I have seen the second builds up close.
Pretty sweet in my book! Probably the first American car I would buy.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/home.asp?bhcp=1

[masraum]

Very cool. To me the GT40 is right up there next to the 917

[Kemo]

oh man! I wonder what the sticker will be for this bad boy?

[doorman930]

Apparently the sticker price is going to be around 150K.

They had a GT painted with the Gulf colors in the garage.

[arcsine]

For me the GT-40 has a major drool factor.

[tabs]

ME Kum in me pants....when is it coming out, and how much...now this is a real case of why buy a new Porsche when you can have a Ford GT...

[Eugene at Pelican Parts]

gorgeous, but only worth the price if they don't use ANY parts from their parts bin. most Ford components need major redesign.

[azasadny]

I love the car, but I work for Ford, so what do you expect?

[Moneyguy1]

And just what is wrong with Ford parts? Any Ford I have owned went mucho miles without major parts falling off. Ford (and the other major manufacturers) have deep pockets for research and development and understand the place to find a defect is on the line rather than at the dealer's, something Porsche seems to still be grappling with.....

[doorman930]

Moneyguy,

I disagree. The newest reports show that Porsche has the highest reliability out of all European manufactures that sell vehicles in the US. Ford is definitely way down on the list. I agree that all major manufactures have huge research budgets, but still ford chooses to use the F-150's 5.4L for the GT. The cylinder head and block are identical. Not a whole ton of differences except for a massive supercharger slapped ontop. Don't get me wrong, I think the GT is incredible, but Ford and GM are no where near companies like Porsche and BMW when it comes to technology.

http://www.jdpa.com/pdf/2003028.pdf

[Moneyguy1]

Well, we can respectfully agree to disagree.....If the "traffic" at Baudrey's Porsche/VW repair shop here in Tucson is any example of German technological reliability, it certainly escapes me...And I LIKE Porsches!!! (have owned four over the past twenty five years, still own an old 944 just to have something to tinker with) Also own a Passat...great car when it is running; expensive little vixen when it is not. Porsche and BMW vehicles last a long time due in large part to the fanatical care they receive and in many parts of the country the seasonal nature of their use. Fords, Chevys and the ilk are expected to start and run reliably no matter what the weather conditions, and are for many people the only car in the family. Porsche owners generally have one or more backups available. The techs at the dealership tell me that the biggest problems with German vehicles has become the electrical and accessory systems. Now much of this may not be the manufacturer's problem since Porsche, for example, spends its time designing engines and their drive components (despite the fact that the Cayenne tranny is Asian). Therefore they rely on outsourcing for many accessories such as A/C compressors, alternators, computers, radio and sound systems, switches, relays, wiring harnesses, you name it. I belong to PCA, I know a lot of owners, I hear the horror stories, each model has its own. Chain tensioners, drive belts, head studs, rings and pinions, the beat goes on. And how about the 996 with an average engine life of 35k? Visit the Cayenne board on Rennlist and look at the niggling little problems owners say they are having. As I said, I like Porsche vehicles; there is something about the way they look and sound that is intoxicating. However, I do not think they are in any way better engineered than any number of other vehicles on the road. Please take into account I said "engineered". There is a lot that happens after the engineer designs and the bean counters give their OK to manufacture. I worked for a few years after college for GM in Research. Sometimes the original design was so changed to save a few pennies that it was barely recognizable, and I fear this mindset has crept into Porsche as well. If not, why would their management be calling in Japanese consultants to show them (Porsche) how to find problems on the line rather than wait for the dealer to be confronted with them?. That being said, I will return to my cave.

Cheers!!!

[doorman930]

Moneyguy,

"And how about the 996 with an average engine life of 35k?"

First I would love to see some data that shows that the 996 engines average lifespan is 35K miles.

Second, many Porsches and BMW's are driven year round in all sorts of conditions. Go over to Europe and talk to a few German P-car and BMW owners.

I am not trying to argue that Porsche isn't looking to the Japanese for help. Tell me one automaker that isn't?? Ever heard of the Toyota Manufacturing System? Ford, GM, Porsche, everyone, is trying to model their manufacturing after Toyota. It is no big secret. The Japanese are way ahead of everyone else when it comes to manufacturing. But when it comes to design/technology, the Germans tend to be way ahead of the US auto companies. The GT is using a F-150's engine with a few other components (supercharger) slapped on. Trust me, look at the American sports cars today. Viper, Corvette, Mustang. All have old pushrod engines except for the Mustang Cobra. The technology in these engines compared to a Porsche, or BMW M class, is years behind.

Yes Porsche outsources many components to suppliers. So does every auto maker. Ever heard of Visteon? They make alternators for Ford. Ever heard of Roush??? They designed the GT's engine, along with the Mustang Cobra, the F-150 Lightning, and the Maurader. Ever heard of Saleen? The are designing the manufacturing process to build the GT. If you are trying to tell me that Ford does even half of the design work on their cars, you are crazy. When did you work for GM, 30 years ago??? No auto makers today design half of the components in their vehicles and they do not manufacture most of the components. They pretty much assemble the engine, and the vehicle and slap their name on it.

In the past Porsche had it's problems. Yes things like chain tensioners, and head studs. Those problems are on cars 20 years old. But those Porsches, compared to other cars that are 20 years old, are usually doing quite well.

Also on new Porsches, yes all new cars have issues. But when someone buys a Ford Taurus with not a whole lot to it, there isn't much to break. And when it does, they don't complain much because, well, it's a Ford Taurus. But for a Cayenne owner, if the leather isn't quite smooth enough, they complain.

[pwd72s]

Today's Porsches? Let's say I won a lottery tomorrow, despite not buying a ticket... Based on just aesthetics? The Ford GT 40 prototype is a lot better looking that the hot new Porsche prototype at (at least) 3 times the cost . Both are better looking than the "Enzo". Let's face it guys, Porsche is declining in the now world wide car market....but so is Ferrari. What the hell is wrong with a USA manufacturer gaining top dawg status?

[Zendalar]

Wonder if one could get replica parts for that Then I would propably build one

[Moneyguy1]

Here ya go..

www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/73502.html

www.rennlist.org/996_faq/i.htm

Just to list a few.......

Many others outlining other problems such as short clutch life, squeaks and rattles, failing instrumentation........and of course just as many with glowing reports so the problems are either overlooked and expected by some owners or hit-and-miss which, if so, indicates build problems at the factory.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by doorman930
Ever heard of the Toyota Manufacturing System?

Uh, it's Toyota Production System. TPS for short.

Trust the industrial engineer who turned down a job with 'em.

[doorman930]

Sorry BlueSky, I'm a design engineer not a manufacturing engineer. Anyway.........


Moneyguy,

Again, show me some data that show's the average life of 35K miles for the 996. Some John Doe saying that porsches have had a bunch of engine failures on some random internet forum doesn't mean much to me (not even a porsche forum). And yes your list of problems with 996's is fantastic. All car's have problems. Some just have more than others. Again look at J.D. Powers initial quaility reports. Porsche is way up on the list. You can find a million lists like that for just about any car on the market. Here, look at this article about Ford.....

http://asp.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-11-05-focus-probe_x.htm

You just took the first two links that came up when you do a search for 996 engine failures. I did the same search and found nothing else related to 996 engine failures. Trust me, large car manufactures today could not get away with huge amounts of engine failures with out it becoming big news.

You said that your Ford vehicles lasted a long time and that Porsche's are built poorly. And I was trying to show you data that proves otherwise.

I work on the new GT everyday. I was out at Roush again today looking at two GT's and the Viper Lemans cars. Incredible vehicles. But, the technology you will find in a $120K 996 turbo versus a $150K Ford GT or a $100K Viper, is much, much more technologically advanced.

[RickM]

I've always loved the GT40...still do. IMO, more car companies should resurrect past "Hi Po" cars like this. Wouldn't you love to be able to buy a "new" split window Vette or "new" Pontiac Goat convertible?

[Moneyguy1]

Sorry. wasn't trying to start something. As a member of PCA, and into cars for 30 years or more, I was trying to make a point that Porsche is as liable to make a car poorly as is any other manufacturer. Yes, I have owned Fords as well that have served me with years of relatively trouble free driving. Would I say they are perfect? Heck, no. As for the 996, I just listed two sites that folks posted on since my time was limited. I have spoken with two dealers' technicians who have informed me that the single most frequent visitor to their respective shops is the 996. Of course you will not see much in the way of "official" admission by any manufacturer that they have a recurring problem. That is not the way you sell product. I can only go on what the service technicians and members of PCA have told me. I was and still am in the market for something to replace my aging 944; I have done about everything that can be done to it and enjoyed every minute. If I can find one, I would probably go the 993 route myself.

One of the problems trying to compare Porsche with a mass producer is the sheer numbers of vehicles produced by, say, Ford or GM. With limited production, a problem that would literally be invisible to the "big guys" sticks out like a sore thumb. A few hundred "bad engines" skews the statistics quite badly. And, there is a huge difference in expectations as you point out. A Ford Taurus for 20k cannot and should not be in the same league re: quality as a 90k car. I would DEFINITELY complain if I bought a new 996 or Cayenne and each and every stich were not perfect and straight. That premium paid should bring something other than a badge on the front of the vehicle. And, at a price factor differential of up to 300%, that vehicle should be damn near perfect!!

When a young sprite out of College a long time ago, I worked for GM in their research division. We took a LOT of different cars apart, tested their systems and subsystems for durability, function, and design. What we found was interesting. Most vehicles were competently designed, and the quality of machining on critical parts did not vary from the mass produced to the more limited makes, nor did the quality of materials in critical areas. (yeah, some cheated on fabric, finishes and plastics used on interior parts) Guess most of the engineers and designers went to similar schools and studied similar texts. Point being, I am still at a loss to explain a 300% differential in price., given the fact that overall quality varies by only a few percentage points.

My last word on the subject.

Heck, a car is, after all, simply a collection of parts designed to transport people and goods in a relatively competent and safe manner. To attribute any other attributes to it is up to the individual owner, and does not change the underlying nature of the machine.

Cheers!!

good thread!!!!!!

[Adam]

It all depends on which GT you're referring to.

Ford's Australian subsidiary (Ford Australia) have developed a performance version of their venerable Falcon range, which carries the hallowed "GT" nomenclature.



The FPV (Ford Performance Vehicles) GT is a large 4-door sedan, powered by an Australian-built 5.4 DOHC 4-valve V8 which develops 392 bhp. It uses the F-series 5.4 block, a Mustang Cobra R crank and heads, but totally unique (Australian designed and built) intake manifold, engine management, rods, pistons, valves and exhaust. The engine is insane for a street car. There's talk of a supercharged version coming out, bearing the name "GT-HO", which is rumoured to have closer to 460-470bhp.



The car weighs approx 4000lbs, but rockets to 60 in just 5.2 seconds and claims the quarter mile in just on 13.8 seconds. A Tremec 5-speed is standard, while a tip-shifted 4-speed auto is an option, sending power to a new independant rear suspension (Control Blade - similar to Focus). They're fully loaded and out the door for the equivalent of US$35k.

What do you guys think of it? They also have a cheaper version called the Falcon XR8, which carries the same motor/tranny combo, albeit detuned to around 350bhp, which comes in under US$30k, fully loaded.

FoMoCo should have tried to federalize the Boss290 (Ford's name for the GT's powerplant) for US-emissions and put it in the new GT40. Would make a hell of a car!

You might be able to tell, I too, work for Ford and I am very excited by this new product. It's slamming the GM equivalents here in Australia already... There's even a 5-month waiting list and they've only been available for a few months. Should sell like hot-cakes in the USA.