I keep thinking about how much I could get for my `87 but there is no car out there that I can work on like the `87. I don't care if auto is faster, rowing gears is more fun and it brings a smile to my face so it stays.

Observations:
Turbo and GT3's are always going to hold way more value.
Tiptronic is a major deduct.
A cheap car needing a lot of work is going to cost me a lot more than a good car that doesn't need work. I don't do engine or transmission rebuilds and bodywork.

I recently did a HPDE at Barber Motorsports. I had the only air cooled car in a field of 165 cars. No doubt I was the slowest around the track, and I let a lot of other cars pass. I still had as much fun as the rest. Many of the drivers came over and took photos of my car and asked about my antique.

I've been watching co part for my next p car . It's shocking how many GT3's come up for auction all busted up . Im guessing a lot of track mishaps .
I think those cars are far faster than your average driver realizes. By the time you are in trouble, you are in deep .

Yep. A lot of cars today being bought by people who shouldn't drive them. Not just Mustangs. ;)

Forget who the F-1 champ who said it, but the line was basically that guys like to consider themselves experts at both driving and making love...when they aren't.

What's the oldest 997 (if any) that's clear of bore scoring/IMS types of issues?

There are none other than maybe than the Mezger engine motor cars. I don't think the Mezger motors have IMS. I'm not sure if they have bore scoring as a possible issue.

My understanding is that any Porsche motor with aluminum block and aluminum pistons with alu-sil is potentially susceptible to bore scoring, and anything with forged pistons is potentially worse. There are ways to minimize/retard it.

This page has 4 videos that talk about why/how it happens, what can be done to prevent/retard it, and what can be done after it happens.
https://www.pca.org/news/bore-scoring-series-1

Even the Mezger engines have an Intermediate Shaft. It's just a different, trouble free design.

I believe the 997 made after 2009(?) did away with the IMS issues but still have the potential for bore scoring.

Yes, I think you're correct the 987.2 and 997.2 no longer have the IMS, but still have the possibility of bore scoring.

I had a 997.1, and it was a good car.

A 997.1 is a fantastic car if it's been maintained properly and you don't get unlucky w the intermediate shaft bearing.

my 2000 996.1 has 240,700 miles and has run trouble free since I bought it in 2006 with 37,000 miles on it. It has had one clutch replaced (at 110,000 miles), and had the IMS bearing replaced at that time. I don't know if the continual usage has been a factor in that engine's long life, but possible maybe?

We have a 90,000 mile 2009 997.2 C4S with the new engine design and that engine has been perfect as well.

Any Porsche should be maintained properly.

I never had an issue with the ISB. The bearing was changed (larger one-row) was helped when the bearing was made larger during late 997.1 and then 997.2.

The first 997 was introduced in 2004. It is a 20-year old car.

and the uggo center dash

Any vehicle should be maintained properly. Since this is a discussion about 997 cars, I made reference to the possibile differences between a well cared for example and one that has skipped an oil change or two.

I've owned a lot of well used vehicles in my life and the one thing that keeps resonating to me is that not all miles are equal. Some people can put 100k miles on a vehicle and it is almost like new, (in every way), while others can completely ruin one in half the miles. :(

Affordable is relative I guess.. Are they good value for money though? Oddly enough, as a serial used 911 buyer over the last 25y, I am out nowadays. There's too much not fixable with those cars, like PDK or ever more complex motors that still can have issues. Back when I was on the 991 forums, Porsche was advocating for a new $15K PDK box when a reverse gear switch (inspection failure) broke!!!! They are old cars for the most part that somehow forgot to depreciate. I can see someone new to the brand achieving their dream and buying one, sure, but if you owned one new or mildly used "then" and still consider them worth the money at today's price, we don't have the same fun/value chart in mind.

The 997 MkI models were a definite upgrade in looks from a 996 but they look kinda awkward to me now and the combo of the not-replaceable IMS, bore scoring, and melting interior makes it a "meh" proposition for the money and cost of repair vs performance. I think an old M2 would be more fun.

MkIIs (09-12) were more interesting, but they came out in very small numbers due to the recession and I would be shocked if less than 50% of them were black and PDK which shrinks the pool of "interesting cars" for me.

It's the same with 991s, I had one, sold it at the height of stupid-Covid-pricing (essentially drove it for 5.5 y for free) but even now they seem stuck above 60K, which IMO is bonkers for what you get. They should be 35-40K by now (per my years of buying used 911s) and they are not. The market has changed and I'm not seeing it return to "normal".

Having owned and enjoyed one of almost every model year at one time or another over 30y (used), I'm definitely suffering from a disconnect with Porsche prices these days, old and new ($120K for a 75 hp 365A, please - mine was 15K!) . New, seems Porsche has moved to a Ferrari model of "buy our supercar and then we'll let you buy an S/T".. Used has been bonkers for a long time now and I do not understand how folks were recently paying $50-60K for an SC or $150K for an early S. I *LOVE* those cars but the fun/cost ratio taht once existed is not there for me anymore, not even close, having owned them when the prices were normally depreciated...

IMO nowadays you can do better in terms of reliability, fun, performance, involvement for less money elsewhere (used or new BMW, Corvette, Miata, possibly the racier mustangs) especially in light of IMS/bore scoring/non-repairable PDK (I hear that at least is starting to change, there's a couple shops repairing pdk now).... Nothing overall "feels" as nice at the helm as a Porsche - they're really good at making steering/pedals/shifter feel great. But it's become a hefty premium on top of the normal premium, for pure performance daily, most electrics can do turbo oomph for 1/2 the money... Track stuff even a 997S is kinda meh now and I think I'd have more fun at lower speeds with an old M3 or new Miata or Toyobaru BRZ...

As they say in the stock market, "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

Or in this case, the market says there is a demand, therefore the prices stay inflated. Hell I'm still kicking myself for not buying a 50K 997.2 in late 2020, or that 993 here a few years ago at $45...

The worst one was the new Fed Bumper cars of 1974-1977. The head bolts would pull out due to the soft magnesium blocks. I never bought one. I lost more than you on a nice 993 911 coupe which I sold for $35K. That same car would be $100K today.

I missed the 996-era due to still being mad at Porsche for going water-cooled. (I got over it).

I went to the 997.1, then to the 991.1, then to the 992. I owned a 2020 Porsche 911 bought before Covid (Feb., 2020). I sold it for a profit which says more about economic issues than Porsche stuff.

2023 Porsche 911:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1723577061.jpg

I have a 2025 Porsche 911 due in 2 1/2 months. I obviously consider the Porsche 911 as the best car ever made with a few minor issues over 60 years.

I like that quote very much. Also I fully acknowledge the market is what the market is, and likely for a reason, I am just saying there's an insurmountable disconnect for me now...

I owned an SC for almost 20y. It's a no-frills "agricultural" car that will teach you a lot about driving a 911 and is unkillable (and not particularly quick). Up to $30K allowing for inflation, based on how familiar I still am with it, sure why not.. But IMO anyone paying $50-60K for one aside of sentimental reasons is not entirely right in the head... and yet the market supported it for a while... I owned 2x 912s, IMO the SWB 912 is the sweetest handling car porsche ever made... Sure, but $60K now? nope..

The 993 you cite is a great example also. I had one in the 2003-2005 time frame, bought for 35K, sold for 35K 2y later. Was it pretty ? OMG yes, to date the prettiest 911 in my book. Was it satisfying? it was the most disappointing 911 I ever owned... Interior of an SC, squeaky windshield, always lit up some dash warning light (and I avoided the secondary air ports coking up), too silent, too soft riding, etc... I know, I know, all that can be improved and I'd be happy to do it again tomorrow.... at a 30K price point, but a nice base 993 is what now ? $60K? Plus a $25K rebuild fee hanging over its head and let's not mention the dealer's $250 an hour shop prices nowadays... Whoever spends their hard earned 60K on one and never drove one before, I think, will be a smidge disappointed. Or not.. I would be because I've had one before. Same story on a 100K 356SC - lovely but not at that price. Or a 997.2, same issue. I'm just saying that I'm rediscovering a ton of other brands with fun cars that have NOT ignored depreciation like 911s have and I feel I'd get more for my money there... Porsche seemingly is leaving me behind and thanks to a great job by their social media folks, is becoming more and more an influencer brand and went up 2 steps in the market, closer to Ferrari now (They still make awesome cars but none that depreciate into the reach of my grubby hands anymore).. I had a shot at a couple GT3s in the 05-08 years around 75-80K. Didn't pull the trigger, now $150 minimum (that's way more than just inflation) - different ballgame, I'd rather own a Villa in italy for that $.

IIRC, the GT3 doesn't have all the electronic nannies to make the driver look good.

GT3 street cars have tons of electronic nannies, depending on which model years you are referring to. The 996 GT3 has the least and it makes it desirable to some people but even it has them.