Anyone installed fire sprinkler in house?

[jyl]

In an existing house, or house-sized commercial building?

[Porchdog]

I have plenty of experience in the field - mostly on the commercial side.

Residential is relatively simple. We don't do a lot of that here, but I'm in the middle of one now.

Is this in CA? Jurisdiction is a critical question.

This isn't a trade where it's easy to DIY.

I'm happy to help or answer questions.

[70SATMan]

Not personally but a long time friend had to install sprinklers when he added a second story to his house.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Porchdog

I have plenty of experience in the field - mostly on the commercial side.

Residential is relatively simple. We don't do a lot of that here, but I'm in the middle of one now.

Is this in CA? Jurisdiction is a critical question.

This isn't a trade where it's easy to DIY.

I'm happy to help or answer questions.

Can you give us a short primer on how it's done at home? My house is basically one big mostly open ground floor with a shed dormer upstairs.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

Can you give us a short primer on how it's done at home? My house is basically one big mostly open ground floor with a shed dormer upstairs.

Do you have access throughout the attic? Is the space conditioned?

[Porchdog]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

Can you give us a short primer on how it's done at home? My house is basically one big mostly open ground floor with a shed dormer upstairs.

A big reason why a "Short Primer" is tough is because "it depends" at almost every step. That's also why it's tough to DIY.

The first question is always - who is telling you that you need a system and what system are they telling you that you need? The "who" is generally the Fire Marshall or the local authority approving a building permit. Note that these authorities aren't always thoroughly educated on the Code - they can be telling you that you need a system when you don't really need a system, or they can be asking for a more expensive system than the Code requires.

The next consideration is which Code? NFPA 13, 13D or 13R. 13R probably applies to residential and it's the easiest and least expensive. That isn't very common here in PA, it's a lot more common in CA, the dryer parts of the West, Georgia and some other locations.

https://www.nfpa.org/news-blogs-and-articles/blogs/2024/03/12/comparing-nfpa-13-nfpa-13r-and-nfpa-13d

Note that copies of the Codes aren't cheap and interpretations often need to be negotiated with the Inspector.

What is your water supply? You will need at least 30 GPM for 10 minutes (best case), which for many homes means that you will need a 300 gallon tank and booster pump. (With wiring to meet the Fire Code). At a minimum you need a flow test of your water source.

Typical residential sprinkler heads can cover up to 16' x 16' each, or one per room (if it's smaller than that). If a room needs more than two heads, you may be designing for more than 30 GPM water flow.

All the pipe needs to be sized per Code and needs to be fire rated (you won't buy it at Lowes). Same with fittings and valves. You will need an alarm triggered by water flow, you may need remote monitoring. (to an alarm company or the fire company).

Not only do all the components need to be listed for fire sprinkler use (fittings, pipe, valves, hangers, etc), they need to be installed per their cut-sheets and per the Code. Just to make it more fun, your local supply house might refuse to sell this stuff to you if you aren't a contractor (The friend whose project I'm on now had this issue. )

FYI - I'm not a contractor. I'm an engineer. I worked for a fire sprinkler contractor while I was in college and learned to design and install systems. I have remained friends with that contractor for over 40 years, my son works for him and is buying the business. I also worked for one of the major manufacturers for over 15 years designing sprinkler heads and valves - including some of the early residential stuff that made residential financially viable.

There's the simple overview.

[jyl]

Hi Porchdog,

I am looking at buying a 1908 house, converted to triplex during WW2, zoned commercial, and converting it to commercial use - retail/cafe in basement and ground level, my office on second floor, third floor/attic no particular use.

My architect has worked through the city requirements for change of use permit, given intended uses and occupancy, building type, etc. For fire safety, it looks like the most sensible option will be to install sprinklers throughout. All four floors, about 3,000 sf, call it 13 rooms.

Sprinklers are not the only option, but sprinklers remove the need for a bunch of other fire safety work (rated fire separation, more egresses, etc) which have the risk of triggering a bunch of ADA work and/or energy efficiency work which is otherwise not required. Plus I think they will increase the value of the building, maybe get a better insurance rate, and allow the most flexibility for future uses (e.g. second floor retail).

My architect recommends, and I agree, that we’re not going to try to hide lines in walls and ceilings. It is going to be a commercial building, I’m fine with exposed iron/copper piping and heads if it saves money. I suspect we’ll need a tank and pump, because water flow/pressure in the neighborhood is not awesome and I’d rather not have to install a new supply line to the street. Also expect we'll need battery backup.

I am aware this isn’t a DIY job. I’m looking for ways to hold down the cost, find a good contractor, and try to bring it in for under $30K. It is in OR.

[LWJ]

I did this 15++ years ago at my college fraternity at UO. We went for cheap over cosmetic. The building is 6000 sq ft more or less (reference Delta House in Animal House movie for a visual. Same structure.)

We had an old school sprinkler guy do it. He was a fraction of the cost of the polished and well presented contractors. Recollection is that we used plastic pipe, which seems sort of counter intuitive for sprinklers.

As for advice? Just do a bunch of asking around. We were on a budget and allowed the contractor to work on a fill in sort of basis. We had the luxury of an entire Summer of vacancy. The end result? We passed inspection. The sprinklers are not attractive. The building is able to be occupied and insurable.

[dad911]

I have not installed one, but I have a sprinkler pipe I'd like to move. Newer homes in Maryland have sprinklers. Looks like orange PVC pipe and orange glue.

[Porchdog]

Commercial is right in my comfort zone.

Your architect should be able to do a competent job of laying out the system, but as LWJ said, you want to talk to some contractors. My buddy and my son do a lot of jobs like yours because they are able to bid them very competitively and make enough money to be worth their while. The bigger or less experienced contractors don't do enough of that work to really understand where the efficiencies are. You also need experienced fitters who can efficiently measure and cut each piece of pipe - shop drawings are only a guideline on those jobs

A lot, or most, sprinkler contractors get their pipe fabricated by specialized shops who deliver the shole job's pipe to the jobsite, with each end of each stick numbered, so the crew just puts it in. That can work on new construction when the drawings are accurate - it's a nightmare on a retrofit.

Your pipe will be steel. Run properly, it doesn't look to bad. Be certain that the painter bags the heads when he paints - you don't want to need to replace new heads because of paint. The Fraternity got to use plastic because it was 13D - I'm pretty sure you won't get that option. The orange CPVC is dedicated to the sprinkler industry - I got to work on it's development, the agency testing and approvals and the code changes to approve it. @dad911 - You are going to want to find a contractor to move that pipe.

Commercial pumps and tanks for sprinkler are a completely different deal than residential. You are almost certainly going to need to upgrade the water service. Your fire sprinkler contractor should be able to include that in his quote.

[LWJ]

^^^and this, is the voice of an expert! I don't know 70% of what he just wrote, but he knows his stuff.

[jyl]

Porch thank you!

Yeah I’m going to look for a lean little outfit without fancy vans and salesmen.

i’m totally fine with exposed pipe. I think that in a commercial place that is a converted old wood house, people will be pleased to see it. I know the city will - and that will probably get me some flexibility on other things they might demand.

[vash]

My friend rebuilt after a wildfire. A fire system was required. He complied. He had to have a water tank installed inline. Just a thought. Hiding it and making it decorative was not easy.

[jyl]

architect got quote for fire sprinkler at $41,000 including upsizing meter to 1.0”. Then the sprinkler company said the city is requiring dedicated 1.5” service for the sprinkler, another $17,000.

I see the city’s fire code explicitly says “all” sprinkler systems are permitted to use combined domestic/sprinkler water supply. Company says doesn’t matter, the fire marshal will not approve a system without a separate dedicated sprinkler water supply line, if the water utility cuts off domestic water (e.g. for non payment) they want water still available for sprinkler.

Sigh. I wonder if I can sue the city if they don’t follow their own code.

I am trying to find a small fire sprinkler company.

If fire sprinklers are really going to cost ~$60,000, it may make sense to skip them and spend the money on fire separation and egresses instead.

There is a weird wrinkle. The city may say the basement in actually the first floor, because it is daylight on two sides of the building, while on the sides where you actually enter/exit the basement floor is well below grade. I read the code as saying “grade” is the average grade around the building perimeter (which would make the basement floor about 3 feet below grade), the city is saying if at any point the grade is level with or below the floor level, then the entire floor is considered above grade (and thus the “first floor”). That means the first floor will be considered the “second floor”, and the second floor considered the “third floor” and they’ll require me to build a second exterior egress, and the third floor/finished attic considered the “fourth floor” which they’ll require me to abandon (wall up or tear out the stairwell). I’ll probably be fighting this - the code language looks very clear to me.

There is another weird wrinkle. The city says they have no records this building was ever permitted as multifamily, even though it is listed in the city’s own database as “triplex” and 2015 permits describe it as multifamily. If they consider it single family, then converting to commercial gets a little more complicated. So my architect has found 1928 and 1942 permits describing it as variously “store” and multiple dwellings, and we’ll see if the city recognizes reality.