Is Muscle dead?

[pwd72s]

Something to watch while pondering the question.

[cabmandone]

IDK about "dead" maybe just evolving.

[Dixie]

Muscle, as we know it, is all but dead. It's being replaced by 8,000 lbs overly complex, monsterous SUVs that will drive themselves. Soon enough our grand-children will ask, "Grandpa, back in the olden days when you had to drive yourself, how did you avoid the chariots and horses?"

[GH85Carrera]

I was behind a Tesla the other day as we got on the interstate. The driver eased onto the on ramp at 30 MPH and then punched it and it was up to 70. My old cars have to build speed from the start of the on ramp.

Just a week ago I "got" to drive that wonderful twisty mountain road, I-70 through Kansas all the way to Boulder, CO.

Miles and miles of nothing but miles and miles. There were no electric cars out there. My 40 year old antique 911 is such a great highway car, and fun on the track as well. 1,500 miles round trip. 450 to 500 miles on a tank of gas depending on speed.

[cockerpunk]

the reality was muscle was never really a thing.

i mean go back and read/watch some old car reviews. most muscle cars were slow AF. 14-16 second quarter miles, etc etc. SAE gross power, simply made up power figures ... like lots of shens going on there. but the performance was never really there. no one could jump an apple with their front tires, no one couldnt touch the dash ... etc etc. none of this was real.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrEL2OQkvOY



old muscle cars have been tainted by modern performance engineering, and rose tinted glasses. those cars can be plenty fast, with much more modern CNC heads/headers/carbs, modern tires, suspension, etc etc. but stock, these cars were never fast. all those stories are largely just ... not true. now, maybe you could do some of the stories, but back then ... nope. not even close.

for context, a gr86 does 0-60 in 6.5, and the quarter in 14.0 at 101. so like if you can touch the dashboard in that car (and you can), you could touch the dashboard in these old cars. no one was jumping the front tires etc.

[MrBonus]

Muscle cars, as live axle high horsepower boats, really don't make sense in a world of 500+ horsepower SUVs that handle like cars and don't break axles every time you launch hard.

[onewhippedpuppy]

If you watch the market, customer interest is definitely shifting away from the muscle car type genre. The Mustang is the only new one left, unless you count the strange turn that Dodge took with making the Challenger an EV or straight six. The classic muscle cars are declining in value if you watch auction results or the Hagerty market index. Which as CP accurately pointed out were never really that much muscle back in the day, but nostalgia is a powerful drug. You could even make the argument that the V8 is a dying breed, not many of them left in new cars.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

old muscle cars have been tainted by modern performance engineering, and rose tinted glasses.

You need to be inside one of those robust, even slightly modified (exhaust mainly and some rubber), old muscle cars when they launch.

There's more to it than ludicrist mode. Yes, you are correct but it's not the same and I know you weren't talking about electric cars.

There is the 3.2 beer factor and being 16 that helps too.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

You need to be inside one of those robust, even slightly modified (exhaust mainly and some rubber), old muscle cars when they launch.

There's more to it than ludicrist mode. Yes, you are correct but it's not the same.

There is the 3.2 beer factor and being 16 that helps too.

there is a lot going on here.

i have been in quad power figure old muscle cars, when the launch, and they are indeed a sensation. thats all however modern engineering. all of it. basically nothing that makes the car that way, is old.

but im talking about the hyperbole that gets tossed around these cars. how many gas station stories have i herd about hemis, and cuddas and GT this's and thats about the front wheels hopping over an apple, or not being able to grab 100 dollar bill taped to the dash ... if ive herd one, ive herd 100.

and just none of that is true. zero. zilch. none.

a gt86 or ND2/3 miata is just as quick as these old cars. and none of those cars hop apples, or you cant touch the dash etc etc.

[Jeff Higgins]

In a word, "tires". Those who were not around to experience muscle cars in their heyday would also have no way of remembering just how terrible tires were back then. The horsepower numbers were not inflated. Many were actually deflated in the interest in keeping them insurable.

Quarter mile times dropped dramatically with the addition of decent tires under the backs of those cars. Often by two seconds or more when they ran on slicks. A couple of my cars that did struggle to run low 14's on street tires easily dropped into the 12's on slicks, with one of them well down into the 11's.

Tire technology has evolved dramatically in the last couple of decades alone, much more so since the '60's and '70's. One very clear indicator was when the 718 Boxster was touted as beating the Carrera GT's time around the Nurburgring. Yes, it did. The Carrera GT's original time, in period, on the rubber available then. Someone then put that Carrera GT on today's rubber and absolutely buried that 718's time.

It's all about the tires.

[cockerpunk]

next hot take ... american muscle is alive and well ... its just teslas/EVs

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

In a word, "tires". Those who were not around to experience muscle cars in their heyday would also have no way of remembering just how terrible tires were back then. The horsepower numbers were not inflated. Many were actually deflated in the interest in keeping them insurable.

Quarter mile times dropped dramatically with the addition of decent tires under the backs of those cars. Often by two seconds or more when they ran on slicks. A couple of my cars that did struggle to run low 14's on street tires easily dropped into the 12's on slicks, with one of them well down into the 11's.

Tire technology has evolved dramatically in the last couple of decades alone, much more so since the '60's and '70's. One very clear indicator was when the 718 Boxster was touted as beating the Carrera GT's time around the Nurburgring. Yes, it did. The Carrera GT's original time, in period, on the rubber available then. Someone then put that Carrera GT on today's rubber and absolutely buried that 718's time.

It's all about the tires.

tires are for sure a big factor.

but the power figures were wrong. look up SAE gross vs net.

[pwd72s]

Some real numbers from the glory days of Muscle..

[herr_oberst]

^ What the heck is that thing? Chargallenger? Cuperbee?

AI strikes again. The double front side markers are cool!

[aschen]

I haven't heard muscle car folklore in 25 years. Not a single semi educated car enthusiast things these cars were fast in the modern context.

It held up until the mid 90s, the last time a mid 13s quartermile was fast. Big hp wasnt cheap/easy until post 2000ish though.

Doesnt seem that long ago when a 930 was considered a good platform for cheap horsepower, seems absurd now

[ted]

I'm a renaissance racer.
The performance and experience of 12 years racing 700hp 2500lb tube chassis V8 race cars with dog ring trans, big brakes, big slicks has ruined my infatuation with any old or new production muscle, pony or sports street cars.
Slow heavy over optioned luxury performance status cars do not appeal to me.
Although not my cup of tea I did test drive a Mach E that accelerated very quickly with 3 people inside and it, made me grin for second.

[gregpark]

Now you could put that 20 on the ɗash and bet the FRONT seat passenger in a hipo ev

[aschen]

The limits of acceleration of any car regardless of power on modern street performance tires is 1.2 ish g. Reaching forward while accelerating at this rate is 20% harder than sitting up from the lying position.

Most people can do that no problem

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by aschen

The limits of acceleration of any car regardless of power on modern street performance tires is 1.2 ish g. Reaching forward while accelerating at this rate is 20% harder than sitting up from the lying position.

Most people can do that no problem

But can they do it after a few beers!???

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by cabmandone

But can they do it after a few beers!???

Today's beers are much more powerful so you can't really compare.