Is Muscle dead?

[wdfifteen]

Muscle and even sports cars died with the advent of electronics. Accelerating fast, cornering fast, going fast all felt more visceral when you controlled or influenced them by mechanical means. Adjusting a dip switch or flashing an eprom doesn’t give the same satisfaction as re-jetting a carb or changing rear end gears. It feels more removed, like you’re waving magic wand at the car rather than getting down in there where things actually happen.
I’m not saying waving the magic wand isn’t more effective, it’s just not as much fun.

[ted]

Had a 66 Mustang Convertible and a Yellow 70.5 Z28 fun to speed shift.
Power steering was too light, tried a restrictor on the pump.
Both handled like my old 71 Chevy pick up.
Modern radials did not make them handle much better.

At least today most new cars can stop and are ok in the curves.


I could say yes to 70 Chevy but today a stock C6Z would be enough for me.

[cabmandone]

A thread mentioning the 440 six pack and a pic of a Chevelle SS. That's old school muscle. A friend had a Challenger with a 440 and another a Chevelle SS. Good grief I loved those two cars.

[thingmon]

Power to weight and tires. GTIs, Subies, and even Hondas are the modern muscle cars. And they turn corners. Kids will build and race what they can afford.

The Hellcats, etc….are old school throwback cool but expensive.

[thingmon]

And there is a 1000hp Honda Odessey out there on the prowl. Be careful with your pink slip.

[RANDY P]

I drive my Pontiac in 100+ deg. weather all the time. Thanks to minor upgrades and maintenance it's perfectly happy in modern traffic. Builder (One of the top 10 record NA Pontiac powered car record holder ) estimates the FWHP around 500.

Oh and yes it will topple the most 'Modern' muscle- even the mighty V6 Accord. . No problem.

rjp

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by thingmon

Power to weight and tires. GTIs, Subies, and even Hondas are the modern muscle cars. And they turn corners. Kids will build and race what they can afford.

The Hellcats, etc….are old school throwback cool but expensive.

Yup. Kids these days build some cool stuff. It's what's in the pantry.

Don't blame them for not caring about grandpa's dream car.

rjp

[zakthor]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

Notice that in the wastelands of the future, there are no EVs and punks are used as hood ornaments.

Wait... I thought that was for the carpool lane.

[RANDY P]

^^^. Wonderful documentary of modern Australia

rjp

[DWBOX2000]

I think it’s dying. I go to lots of car shows and see lots of muscle cars. The problem is it’s all 60+ guys driving them and there are no young folk there getting excited about them. The numbers drop annually too. From the little I gather from the younger folk, they seem excited about 80’s forward Japanese cars that they read about in some comic or series. It’s like Laconia bike week in NH, just a bunch of old dudes blipping there throttles.
Now whether 60’s muscle are fast or not, no idea. I just feel they are going the way of the model T.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

Remember, after 50+ years of technology you better damn well hope you beat some musclecar. Also as mentioned tires have come a long long way. I'll be willing to bet some of the 60 GM stuff will easily crack 11's with modern rubber and a good driver.

You can talk all you want about modern exotics but back then musclecars were bread and butter affordable. Nowadays, if want to spend 6 figures BUYING something that might catch what some hillbilly built in a garage with a Summit catalog, go for it. It doesn't mean or prove a damn thing- except you had to buy it.


Muscle ain't dead, it just became extremely prohibitive (READ Barrett Jackson, collectors) to get the real stuff.

Muscle is just cooler than a ****ing EV- I don't care if it's 0-60 quicker. Sorry.

rjp

A microwave cooks a steak faster than a charcoal grill, but I would still rather have a grilled steak any day of the week.
The young punks will never understand how good it feels to build something out of nothing, trial and error tuning to get it right, the enjoyment of having actual friends show up for a engine swap and (instead of their “Gamer” friends on line)what it’s like to get grease under your fingernails and how good it feels, taking the test drive at 1am, when it all comes together. I pointed out 20 years ago that shops were going away for actual technicians to nothing but “Installers”, when I went with a friend to pick up his 930 from a shop in Georgia, after 8 months and they did more damage, when the owner was bragging about it HP he was getting out of modern cars ( which was basically just plugging in a laptop and “Reflashing”, to real skill when someone else created software and anyone who can read and follow simple instructions could do.

Muscle and even sports cars died with the advent of electronics. Accelerating fast, cornering fast, going fast all felt more visceral when you controlled or influenced them by mechanical means. Adjusting a dip switch or flashing an eprom doesn’t give the same satisfaction as re-jetting a carb or changing rear end gears. It feels more removed, like you’re waving magic wand at the car rather than getting down in there where things actually happen.
I’m not saying waving the magic wand isn’t more effective, it’s just not as much fun.

Not often that I agree with you, but you are dead on about this. When the car does all the work, it takes the fun out. When I had my 964 C4, that benefited from the recall (and Brumos said it you want to upgrade the engine, labor is covered by the recall, and you will be credited for the stock parts) and it was much faster than when I test drove the 964 C4 when it was introduced. A friend called me on a Tuesday and asked me what I was doing tomorrow, I said working, then she said we have Roebling Road tomorrow, no cost and with you, it will only be 5 of us. I was, dang, my track car is not ready, as we were doing a few upgrades. She said bring your street car, only 5 cars on track at the most and hard to beat the price. So I took Patty, so she could work on her tan while I was playing on the track. Being on street tires (17” Cup IIs) and being use of Hoosiers , at first I was taking it easy. But you know how it gets, friends play, a few had their race cars, and I just wanted to see to what extent I could keep up, not really expecting much. Well, we are ripping down the front straight, and the 964 was doing way better than I expected, next thing I know, I’m going faster than my old track car could, and then I see that I’m not only going much faster, but am much deeper going into turn one. I figured I would end up going off, but the AWD, flat out pulled my ass through the turn, so I kept pushing harder. Every time, the C4, pulled me through. After a few laps, it got boring to me, you see, if the car is doing the work, essentially correcting your mistakes, well, if there’s no punishment for your mistakes, then there’s no reward for you and if the car is doing the work. That’s why early 930s and 911s are so much fun, because the risk/reward factor. To drive a early 930 or 911 fast around the track, you truly have to learn and work hard to do so. To me, that’s much more rewarding.
In the local PCA, there was a clown, who leased a RS America when they came out, he had Brumos trick it out, suspension and more. Problem was, he couldn’t drive it for crap, with what should have been a car that would be one of the fastest, he was at the bottom. When the 996 C4Ss came out, he leased one of those, PMS, and all the other tech, all the sudden, he was in the top of the pack, he never improved as a driver (that was clear at DEs) so it was the car driving him. I have always believed, without Risk, there can be no real Reward, which is why I got bored with the 964 (and damn, I regret that I let that go, but used the money in a business. You sir, have have the purest form of Porsche, a 356 Speedster and with that, you gain the most reward for driving it well, even though most modern cars are much, much faster. But a pure driving car is much more rewarding. Funny, a good friend of mine, who raced IMSA in the glorious era, and we know there were basically 2 types of racers then, those who bought a seat to race, and those who got those guys on the pole.My friend is the latter, pushing 80,still a great driver. Owned and raced some of the fastest Porsche’s on the track back then (and owned every year Speedster as well as a few very special Porsches, wanted to drive my Cayenne Turbo, says that is it faster than the full race Porsches he raced (from factory RSRs up) . He still owns and drives some very fast cars, so it isn’t like he his comparing it to say his tube chassis IMSA 911 or his old 906 or factory 924 GTR.
When a car has no soul, it becomes an appliance like a microwave oven.

[Billiam 911 2.8]

I suspect the average age of Porsche air-cooled cars owners is in the upper 50s at least.
I always wanted a Lotus Elan or a Super 7 with a FA Cosworth BDJ and sticky tires.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Billiam 911 2.8

I suspect the average age of Porsche air-cooled cars owners is in the upper 50s at least.
I always wanted a Lotus Elan or a Super 7 with a FA Cosworth BDJ and sticky tires.

The Elise is still a fun car to the track

[speeder]

Originally Posted by DWBOX2000

I think it’s dying. I go to lots of car shows and see lots of muscle cars. The problem is it’s all 60+ guys driving them and there are no young folk there getting excited about them. The numbers drop annually too. From the little I gather from the younger folk, they seem excited about 80’s forward Japanese cars that they read about in some comic or series. It’s like Laconia bike week in NH, just a bunch of old dudes blipping there throttles.
Now whether 60’s muscle are fast or not, no idea. I just feel they are going the way of the model T.

60+ …the last local car show I went to, in Minneapolis, the owners were all 60+ and that was 25 years ago! The cars were great, perfect ‘60s GTOs and big block Corvettes but the owners were geezers sitting on lawn chairs reminiscing about being young, from the looks of it. I’d love to own one of those cars but nostalgia is a tricky thing, IMO. Sometimes it’s best to just leave things in the past.

[DWBOX2000]

You’re correct, it has been this way for a while. Honestly I wish they would bring in younger crowds. Looking at 68 Camaros can get real old.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

Younger people? LOL
Only if they can download/upload and hit the configure program will they get interested.
Now,. all the hotrodding is done VIA codes and programs.
Hardly a bolt is ever unthreaded.
It's sad, but the way it is.

I think you're wrong. I think most of the current batch of hot rodders are turning bolts. I think there's lots of exhausts and turbos getting added/upgraded, as well as suspension. Yes, they also need software adjustments.

[RANDY P]

You got some really creative young people out there. Also they have the nuts to screw with a brand new mid five to six-figure car with no formal training.

....and get away with it.

rjp

[DWBOX2000]

My son is 23, he’s always turning bolts on his 02 Miata whether needed or not. Maybe they are just doing different things and we just don’t get invited.
I don’t think hot rodding is dead, just the lure of the muscle cars has weakened. Personally, I love a good car show. Grab a cup of coffee, walk around talking to people, learn some stuff and gets me away from yard work. If there’s shade I’m in heaven.

[herr_oberst]

"Old people sitting in lawn chairs on the lawn watching the grandkids polish the lugnuts on the 'Cuda"

"Young people sitting behind a laptop matching the boost to the timing, never lifting the hood on the GTR"

I see both, but there's also a vast middle ground. Car Culture in Portland is alive and well, (muscle and tuner and turnkey), and if that's true for Portland, I'm pretty sure it's the same in Northeast Ohio or Santa Cruz or Lubbock, Texas.

Muscle isn't dead, but it has evolved, and it can be an expensive hobby. Lkewise, tuners aren't killing the notion of shadetrees on Saturday afternoon; they just have different ideas and modern tools but they're working with what they have to see what happens when you tweak the stock parts.

Most of us on this board are just a bunch of old guys talkin' bout the good ol' days, myself included. But these are the good ol' days for tons of people younger than us that are out having fun with cars.

[GH85Carrera]

One of the reason I own a 85 911, and my "modern" car is a 86 El Camino is there is always some tinkering to do, With a combined mileage of 488,000 miles, things do need to be maintained, and often things wear out that were never designed to go for 40 years.

I would not consider either of my cars as muscle cars, but both have won awards at car shows, and get regular offers to sell them.

Our dealership just sold another 911 GT3 RS. Just over 300K. It would out muscle all the old factory stock cars of the 60s and 70, and it can stop and turn rather well to boot. But for that price it sure should. And no I don't see a 911, any 911 as muscle car.