Mounting & balancing new tires

[pmax]

[Zeke]

@afterburn, that's what I was saying, but tire truing is shaving, same thing. Yes, the old Hunter floor type machines did that. Tires and rotating components were worse then and needed that. Now it's the final step.

You guys know how to balance a ceiling fan, right? Best way is before it's hung but with blades installed and mounted vertically and doing a static balance. If already on the ceiling any clip on like a tie clip, hair clip, clothespins, the tool in the box and magnets all work as long as you weigh them in advance. You can do it by random chance on the ceiling moving and adjusting your temp weight CC or CCW until it starts to balance out.

Tires can be like that. Just a spin on a computer balancer to the equivalent of 20 mph is not good enough. But it's faster, much more safe, and pretty darn accurate. However, tires do change a lot at much higher speeds. This is why the standard computer balancer is used for most cars. Shoot, here in L.A. there are no roads smooth enough to even know.

But you will know on that road trip where you are hitting 80+ on a good highway. The harmonics may come at 65, 70 (common) or more. At 55 mph all is well if you've had even a half assed job. Hand tuning on the car takes care of the last little bit.

If I was buying a bubble balancer I would buy an oldie and go through it. No HF cheap siht. The HF will do some of the work but not enough to justify even the measly $100 they get. Again, no input on where WRT to the vertical weight centerline is available with a bubble. BTW, the old Hunter floor model did not address the center of the mass either. You need the computer, old analog or new digital.

[afterburn 549]

Now for something completely different-Don't forget to " Track" your ceiling fan too.
Just like rotor blades.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

Now for something completely different-Don't forget to " Track" your ceiling fan too.
Just like rotor blades.

Plus 1. And that is a perfect example of the balance of the mass centerline, a critical aspect of balancing. Thank you for bringing that point right into the tire discussion.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Ordering the USA made duck head attachment today, got a really nice response to my email asking a few questions. I'll post a round-up when everything is done.


Mike, duck head maker at Lucid Autowerks recommended this video. Unless I find a decent balancer on FBMP, I'm going to get the balancer in this video. The $1K price is a little painful but given all the tires I need to do now and in 2026, some wheel restorations, it will be worth it in the end.

[afterburn 549]

For the cost of a used tire machine (less than 500) I dont see any reason to do that the hard way.
As said, use plenty of lube, especially on mounting, and be very mindful of keeping the tire bead in the drop zone when running the second bead into the rim.
If you dont, there is a really great chance of ripping the bead.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I checked out used tire machines, nothing for under $1K and those were USED. But honestly the biggest issue is while I have a decent amount of space in my shop, a tire machine has a decent size footprint and it's tall. The balancer does too but it's short and I can put it under a shelf when not used.

I will be $1500 into a complete set all in... everything. That is a full $500 more than makes sense to me but I really do think it will be worth it in the end. At least that's what I'm telling myself.

[Magyar Kiwi]

Hi
Had some experiences in the past with fitting and balancing new tires, found the following points helped.
1/ Use tire mounting lubricant, not just soap and water.
2/ Position Red Dot and Yellow Dot markings correctly. (Red Dot takes precedence)
3/ Do initial balancing. (optional).
4/ Fit to car and drive until scrubbed in.
5/ After some spirited driving remove wheels/tires from car and balance while hot.
Cheers

[afterburn 549]

I will guess the price of equipment is contingent to locality?
Here in the Ne sector, stuff 10 years old and older is cheap and on FB all the time .

[Jeff Alton]

We do it every day here at the shop.....

Tire machine is a RAV from Italy, new balancer is Snap-On. NOT inexpensive equipment. The tire machine is basically touchless as we can't be damaging wheels on the types of cars we see. No steel wheeled minivans here.

I chuckle when people say "road force is the only way" . Our previous RAV balancer and our new Snap On one (John Bean) is deadly accurate. We had considered a Hunter Road Force at one point, but after rebalancing wheels that were at a shop/dealer with a Road force just a day or too prior, we decided to keep our current equipment.

In 15 years we have never had a comeback for a balance, never. On everything from a VW Golf to a Lambo/Mclaren/Ferrari/GT3 etc... High end machines can recommend a tire rotation on the wheel, that is what road force suggests as well. Hunter pioneered the Road Force as a marketing thing...

On a side note---- every once in a while, we balance a wheel/tire and it needs ZERO weight.... Yet is truly balanced.

Cheers

[Jeff Alton]

Originally Posted by Magyar Kiwi

Hi
Had some experiences in the past with fitting and balancing new tires, found the following points helped.
1/ Use tire mounting lubricant, not just soap and water.
2/ Position Red Dot and Yellow Dot markings correctly. (Red Dot takes precedence)
3/ Do initial balancing. (optional).
4/ Fit to car and drive until scrubbed in.
5/ After some spirited driving remove wheels/tires from car and balance while hot.
Cheers

If both dots are on the tire, align the YELLOW dot with the valve stem.... If you have a wheel that actually shows/indicates a "low" spot on the wheel, then align the Red dot with that low spot. But, with low profile, shallow drop center wheels, this can be very difficult. Yes, if both dots are on the tire, and no mark on the wheel, red lines up with valve stem.

Yet sometimes we are mounting tires where the dots end up on the inside......

[afterburn 549]

Tools are only as good as thier operators.
Remember valve adjustments?
If one does not understand the full "dynamics", most everything and a anything can be done WRrrrrong !

A common problem is not cleaning the wheels off really well B4 balancing.
Another is that on a spin balance is to get the weight on slightly off target, now the machine wants another somewhere else to counter the mistake, cause it does not know anything but numbers.
Most tire shops will just do that, rather than take the time to do it correctly, one weight inside/ outside.
On we could go here .
My little machine does a very fine job , no buzz or feedback.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by Magyar Kiwi

Hi
Had some experiences in the past with fitting and balancing new tires, found the following points helped.
1/ Use tire mounting lubricant, not just soap and water.
2/ Position Red Dot and Yellow Dot markings correctly. (Red Dot takes precedence)
3/ Do initial balancing. (optional).
4/ Fit to car and drive until scrubbed in.
5/ After some spirited driving remove wheels/tires from car and balance while hot.
Cheers

I prolly have more real world experience than you do

I would ship my tires to AB or JA first ... real people .

But you "might" be correct ...

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Alton

We do it every day here at the shop.....

Tire machine is a RAV from Italy, new balancer is Snap-On. NOT inexpensive equipment. The tire machine is basically touchless as we can't be damaging wheels on the types of cars we see. No steel wheeled minivans here.

I chuckle when people say "road force is the only way" . Our previous RAV balancer and our new Snap On one (John Bean) is deadly accurate. We had considered a Hunter Road Force at one point, but after rebalancing wheels that were at a shop/dealer with a Road force just a day or too prior, we decided to keep our current equipment.

In 15 years we have never had a comeback for a balance, never. On everything from a VW Golf to a Lambo/Mclaren/Ferrari/GT3 etc... High end machines can recommend a tire rotation on the wheel, that is what road force suggests as well. Hunter pioneered the Road Force as a marketing thing...

On a side note---- every once in a while, we balance a wheel/tire and it needs ZERO weight.... Yet is truly balanced.

Cheers

I suspect your techs are a little better than the average grease monkey at the tire store.

[afterburn 549]

Jeff,
I have had that happen a couple of times.
I thought the machine went bad.!
Both times, it was high-end tires, not the usual crap.

[Dan J]

Originally Posted by Jeff Alton

We do it every day here at the shop.....

Tire machine is a RAV from Italy, new balancer is Snap-On. NOT inexpensive equipment. The tire machine is basically touchless as we can't be damaging wheels on the types of cars we see. No steel wheeled minivans here.

I chuckle when people say "road force is the only way" . Our previous RAV balancer and our new Snap On one (John Bean) is deadly accurate. We had considered a Hunter Road Force at one point, but after rebalancing wheels that were at a shop/dealer with a Road force just a day or too prior, we decided to keep our current equipment.

In 15 years we have never had a comeback for a balance, never. On everything from a VW Golf to a Lambo/Mclaren/Ferrari/GT3 etc... High end machines can recommend a tire rotation on the wheel, that is what road force suggests as well. Hunter pioneered the Road Force as a marketing thing...

On a side note---- every once in a while, we balance a wheel/tire and it needs ZERO weight.... Yet is truly balanced.

Cheers

I'm with Jeff. I have Corghi equipment never needed a road force balance on any Porsche .
Modern tires and wheels are still an FFing PIA Want to do it yourself? Have at it

[Jeff Alton]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I suspect your techs are a little better than the average grease monkey at the tire store.

Yes, they are. Many companies make great balancers, but the tech needs to be proficient as well, and have high attention to detail. When balancing wheels/tires, "close enough" is not "Good enough"

Cheers

[Jeff Alton]

Originally Posted by Dan J

I'm with Jeff. I have Corghi equipment never needed a road force balance on any Porsche .
Modern tires and wheels are still an FFing PIA Want to do it yourself? Have at it

Dan, I agree-- shallow drop centers, low profile, stiff sidewall=JOY, NOT!

Years ago, as part of PCA tech day at our shop, we let people mess around undercar adjusting alignment and watching how much the numbers can move with the slightest turn of a wrench.

Then we had them mount and dismount a tire, and then balance it. Never heard a single one comment on the cost of tire mount/balance or an alignment cost after that

Cheers

[Jeff Alton]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

Jeff,
I have had that happen a couple of times.
I thought the machine went bad.!
Both times, it was high-end tires, not the usual crap.

Its rare, but it happens. Trust me, I believe you that you thought the machine was bad.

First time it happened to me I was like "are you FF'ing kidding me? I paid how much for this machine and now its screwed and I need to get it fixed or buy another one???"

Thankfully it was my own car, so tried 3 times on that wheel, put them on the car, went for a rip down the highway- all perfect. Since then, the techs get pretty excited when it happens- they finally got one!

Cheers

[Superman]

Couple of old farts ran a beloved, respected and old-fashioned alignment/suspension/tire shop here in town. They take the month of September off to go hunting. There were no mounted elk or deer heads on the wall but there were plenty of impressive pictures.

I took a Datsun 620 pickup to them with handling problems. It tended to wander and there was a rear wheel balance problem. I think the guy fixed my problems in about 20 minutes. One of the things he did was to rebalance the rear wheels without taking then off the car. He just raised the rear axle, started the truck, put it in gear and released the clutch. He'd put his hand on the truck bed in different positions. Take the transmission out of gear then go put his hand on the bed until the suspected wheel stopped moving. With wheel weight pliers in the other hand he would install, remove or reposition a weight. Rinse, repeat until the bed didn't vibrate anymore. That thing drove like a Porsche when he was done. He charged me almost nothing.

I have had more wheel-balance problems at places with computerized spin machines than I have at places where the guy uses a static bubble balancer with a rag hanging from his front pocket. There are guys who know how to run a fancy computerized balancing machine, and then there are guys who know how to balance wheels. There is a difference.