Spain is now France

[lendaddy]

Somewhat correct, but in our defense we did the opposite of caving in. I just think it's pretty sad to see how cowardly people can be whether here in America or elsewhere. They have every right to do what they want and I have the right to judge their decision. So be it.

[joeclarke]

Somewhat correct, but in our defense we did the opposite of caving in. I just think it's pretty sad to see how cowardly people can be whether here in America or elsewhere. They have every right to do what they want and I have the right to judge their decision. So be it.

Why does everyone want to continue to mix the 9/11 and Iraq issues?

The railing against France, Spain or whomever else has nothing to with the issue of fighting back against terrorism. For F sake - no one is taking a stance against the stance against terrorism.

What the hell does not supporting the bull**** attack on Iraq have to do with "caving to terrorism"?

Pretty huge miscarriage of logic that I'm convinced continues to prevail in the minds of many Americans.

[lendaddy]

"What the hell does not supporting the bull**** attack on Iraq have to do with "caving to terrorism"?"

Wow, hello McFly! Obviously the people of Spain connected the two! Or do you think the socialist party ran some "really good" ads in the last two days of the campaign. Wake up. Please explain the switch of votes if I am wrong.

[Aurel]

You confuse the cause and the consequence Mr. daddy. The spanish were attacked by El Quaeda because they supported the invasion of Iraq. But initially, there was no connection. It is Bush stupid invasion that created the connection. Now, the fanatics will attack just more. And one more time, fighting against terrorism does not involve invading other countries. Those are two totally different things that the Bush administration has twisted as being the same.

Aurel

[Leland Pate]

Who honestly give a rat's behind what the "Spanish" do.


Remember, they "are" the people who find enjoyment in being chased by raging 2000 pound animals down narrow streets.

Wow, what a great idea.

[Aurel]

Remember, they "are" the people who find enjoyment in being chased by raging 2000 pound animals down narrow streets.

Wow, what a great idea.

I assume that riding a wild bull while wearing a large hat and shouting `yheaaa` is a much greater idea

Aurel

[widebody911]

Originally posted by Aurel
I assume that riding a wild bull while wearing a large hat and shouting `yheaaa` is a much greater idea

...or jumping off of a running horse onto one and wrestling it to the ground
...or throwing a rope around it's neck, then wrestling it to the ground and trying to tie up it's legs... (a number of my relatives are missing fingers due to this hobby)
...and I hear in SF they milk the bulls...

[dd74]

Spain was the only support the U.S. had in Europe. Sure, there's Britain, but big deal - Blair has that country set up like it's America Light. We say jump, he says "How high?"

"Yes" to a degree, the Spainish did cave in. What should a person expect them to do? How the hell are they supposed to fight a morphing force like terrorism? Something that can strike anyplace, anywhere because terrorism of this sort stems from ideology, not front lines and hard targets.

Yes, they caved in, and they wisened up, too. They're out of this war, and for 201 good (dead) reasons, while sparing many, many more.

[MFAFF]

5% to 10% on a pre election poll that has a 10% tolerance...

Sounds like a close call. Too close to be reliable.

Anyway cultural diversions aside as to who has the best deal with cattle, we just like them MAD, its the preception of cause and effect that will do the greatest harm.

As for the US military record since the US exists which neatly
avoid the war if Independance, its not 100% win record.

Civil War. Ouch. Not glorious.

War against the Native Indians. Better avoid that one.

A couple of big team efforts in WW1 and WW2, a good victory in Korea, but Vietnam was not so clear cut, as for excursions in Panama and Greneda well not really full matches were they?

Libya? Bit of a hit and run, but very effective nonetheless.

Gulf War 1..clean cut military victory but 'politically' a great loss. And as Von Clausvitz ans Sun Tse quote, War is politics by other means.

Gulf War 2. Rapildy heading the same way as above.

I apologise for omissions this is off the cuff, I'm sure I've missed one or two.

As for the French wanting to defend their own interests in Iraq, isn't that what the US is doing?

Same goals different methods?

And getting rid of a totalitarianregime which abuses it population is not a good reason becuase there are plenty of those which recieve US recognition as well as distain which do not get invaded...

[RickM]

Quote: "Who honestly give a rat's behind what the "Spanish" do."


I do, I have family over there.

[Neilk]

Come on RickM... where's that American spirit of not giving a damn what "fareners" think about you.

[Purrybonker]

I apologise for omissions this is off the cuff, I'm sure I've missed one or two.

The one that always gets forgotten... The War of 1812. The Canadians (Brits, really) responded to an attempted invasion of Canada by US forces. They marched all the way to Washington and burned the Whitehouse before retiring back to Canada.

Oh and...Vietnam "not so clear cut'"? That observation could certainly win some kind of award for understatement.

[Paco Anton]

Originally posted by Leland Pate
Who honestly give a rat's behind what the "Spanish" do.

Well, ... I do. But that was predictable...

Two years ago Spain was not even on the map for the average American. We have never been close allies. We have never shared common ideas. In the 60s Spain and USA began military cooperation because of the Cold War (The USA like the idea of having an ally control the Straits of Gibraltar, we liked the dollars).

A couple of years ago our president decides that he wants to put Spain on the international map and joins forces with the USA and the UK. It works. (In Spain we have a saying: "Let everybody talk about you, even if it is to blame you").

Then Bush calls Aznar "Amigo". Did Spain change? No. It was the making of one guy. I like what he did. 90% of Spaniards don't.

So we go back to being nobody in the international scene. We are used to that. We had our 5 minutes of fame back in the XV century. Now we go back to collective "siesta".

So? Is Spain the new France? No! We go back to being a nice place for vacationing and little else. Just as it was before...

PS. There is one thought that bothers me. In 3000 bc the world's most advanced civilization and most powerful nation were the Egyptians, then the Romans, then the Spaniards, the French, the British, then the USA.

Which country will be next? The Chinese? What will be of the USA when they aren't no .1 anymore? Will I live to see it? Just curious...

[Moses]

Originally posted by MFAFF
5% to 10% on a pre election poll that has a 10% tolerance...

Sounds like a close call. Too close to be reliable.

Anyway cultural diversions aside as to who has the best deal with cattle, we just like them MAD, its the preception of cause and effect that will do the greatest harm.

As for the US military record since the US exists which neatly
avoid the war if Independance, its not 100% win record.

Civil War. Ouch. Not glorious.

War against the Native Indians. Better avoid that one.

A couple of big team efforts in WW1 and WW2, a good victory in Korea, but Vietnam was not so clear cut, as for excursions in Panama and Greneda well not really full matches were they?

Libya? Bit of a hit and run, but very effective nonetheless.

Gulf War 1..clean cut military victory but 'politically' a great loss. And as Von Clausvitz ans Sun Tse quote, War is politics by other means.

Gulf War 2. Rapildy heading the same way as above.

I apologise for omissions this is off the cuff, I'm sure I've missed one or two.

As for the French wanting to defend their own interests in Iraq, isn't that what the US is doing?

Same goals different methods?

And getting rid of a totalitarianregime which abuses it population is not a good reason becuase there are plenty of those which recieve US recognition as well as distain which do not get invaded...

Why so bitter? Come on! Cheer up! We're 13-3. That record will will make the playoffs in any league.

[Moses]

"We're all very different people. We're not Watusi, we're not Spartans, we're Americans! With a capital "A," huh? And you know what that means? Do you? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world!"

-Bill Murray (Stripes)

[Moneyguy1]

I would have to agree that brute force against a clandestine enemy is fruitless. How can anyone change the mindset of an entire region that cannot control itself? Until those of moderate persuasion in the Middle East finally take responsibility and stop blaming everyone else for their problems, the situation will continue. History can attest that claiming the gods are on your side has been the basis for most conflicts. Islam has to "get over itself" and realize that, despite what the Imams and Mullahs tell the masses (and they do not even agree with each other, and would blow each other up at the drop of a turban), there will be no peace in the region. Remember one of the basic tenets of Islam: Convert, Submit, or Die.

Rant over.

[dd74]

That's fine and good, Bob. Unfortunately, they know nothing more than their religion. It's what happens when religion introduces itself to a humanity and effectively stunts it.

[Moneyguy1]

That was, I think the point I was trying to make. Perhaps, by attempting to change attitudes through education, given the availability of global communications and the few Middle East nations that seem at lest willing to listen, the results would be better than marching in and forcing (at least in the eyes of the citizenry) an alien mode of behavior. How long that would take? Only God knows. And, you are absolutely correct. Not only is their religion central to their existence, the interpretation of same changes to suit the occasion. For example, the Quoran specifically states that all are to be treated with respect and honesty. A Muslim I know told me that current belief is that Muhammed actually meant that other Muslims are to be treated that way, but not "unbelievers". And, even with the "Convert, submit or die", originally meant that a conqured people could convert to Islam, submit to the authority of the conquerers, or if they chose to do neither, then die. Islam in the beginning was quite tolerant of other belief systems. The Quoran goes on to say that Jews and Christians are "Brothers in the Book" and are to be protected. Only my opinion, but I see current Islam as the ultimate tool for controlling hundreds of millions of people (not that other belief systems haven't had their time doing the same!!!)

The strange thing is I do not believe that much of the terrorism has anything to do with religion. or if it does, not the sane application of it. It is the result of the fear of change; the fear that some of the inconsistencies might emerge and reduce the power of those who pull the strings, the fact that basic tenets have been bastardized to conform to the ends of the leaderships. Simple politics and power. That is, of course, only my opinion. Spending time over there will do that to you. Not my favorite place.

[MFAFF]

Cheers Moses.

Put that way its, the record isn't too shabby.

I'll lighten up.

[RickM]

Things are getting more interesting by the hour over in Spain. The new Prime Minister-elect Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero is now "show boating" and indicating he will only support/work with Kerry. I say
"stay out of our polictics and focus in on your country, Jose." IMO, this is a politically immature and poorly thought out move on his part. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20040317/ap_on_re_eu/spain_bombings_1

It also seems that some percentage of the Spanish population feel duped regarding the election. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040317/ap_on_re_eu/spain_protest_1

Al Quida (sp) endorsing Bush and thanking Spaniards ..... http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=4591197