U S abuse of Afghan prisoners "widespread"

[350HP930]

Originally posted by rcecale
It would be one thing if they would have attacked a military installation, like the Japanese did in 1941, but they didn't. They attacked a building full of "innocent" people, including women and children. Children probably the same age as the child in your picture.

So does this mean that the planes targeting the pentagon, CIA headquarters or white house would have been OK?

Since the WTC was a major financial hub for the US does it not count as a legitimate military target? Even US forces have deliberately targeted office buildings full of reporters and business people in the former yugoslavia for the stated purpose of damaging their economy and the ability to 'propagandize' to their citizens.

Why the double standard when it comes to killing innocent civilians?

I say its all murder and evil, but you appear to be the one trying to say its OK to kill civilians as long as they aren't ours.

[rcecale]

Originally posted by CRH911S
Incidentally, to those that this applies thank you for having served or continue to serve. To those that didn't return you will never be forgotten. God Bless America and have a safe Memorial Day.

Clint

Clinton, I'm proud of you!

Randy

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Mule
Each one of us has to choose for ourselves what we think is credible and what is not. Unfortunately for most left wing whack jobs, their hatred for most things American leaves them susceptable to believing even the most off the wall crackpot statements, like the article from the Guardian (commie gazzette). You wanna see fair & balanced, check this link.

The Truth According To Al Jezzera

Those are out & out lies. But the left wing whack jobs buy 'em hook line & sinker. And the standard response is, "prove it wrong!" Like I said before if I hated this country that badly, I'd leave.

Mule. Its become rather buried in this now ponderousn thread- but i'd be very interetsed to read your answer to my question about your linked AlJ Azeera article.

What is your issue with this piece?

[350HP930]

Mule's issue with the AJ piece is probably that it includes all sides of the story instead of just the bush administration's, either that or its the fact that it was probably written by a muslim.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by widebody911
One aspect of "suicide bombers" that the West just doesn't 'get' is that in their minds, they're not suicide bombers. Suicide is a selfish, solo act, ie hanging yourself, slitting your wrists, etc. What we call a 'suicide bomb' is to them is simply launching an assault in which they just happen to have a very low probability of survival. The annals of military history are replete with such acts of selfless sacrifice for the good of the unit, even among American troops, yet nobody is calling those Americans "lunatics," are they?

Not many Americans that intentionally launch assaults on innocent women and children....low chance of survival or not...your insinuation that their actions are equivalent to that of brave US soldiers is sad....and foolish

[350HP930]

A large percentage of the US pilots that firebombed tokyo and dresden never made it back to base so the comparison is not that far out of whack.

I am sure that you will argue that those civilian slaughters were OK though since you want to stick to the belief that the other side's fanatics are so much worse than our own are.

There are also the cases of US backed and protected terrorists like Luis Posada who didn't mind attacking innocent civilians as long as the chances of his own survival was high. Does that make him a better or worse terrorist than those on the other side?

[CRH911S]

your insinuation that their actions are equivalent to that of brave US soldiers is sad

The killing of non-combatants is the necessary by-product of any war. The intentional killing of con-combatants isn't an alien concept. It didn't work during the Vietnam war and isn't working in Iraq. To blame it on the soldiers fighting a war is well, narrow minded. Whatever the principle is behind the invasion of Iraq, our involvement will end when Americans get tired of the killing of our sons and daughters.

[CamB]

Originally posted by CRH911S


The killing of non-combatants is the necessary by-product of any war. The intentional killing of con-combatants isn't an alien concept. It didn't work during the Vietnam war and isn't working in Iraq. To blame it on the soldiers fighting a war is well, narrow minded.

This is really well put, and this is also how I think. I don't blame "the soldiers", although obviously one might occasionally blame "that" soldier (singling one out).

My overall issue is reasonably simple - war should be a last resort and should be undertaken with great care. My memory is easily long enough to think about the lead up to invading Iraq and the tenousness (is that a word?) of the case for the invasion.

The detail of the bad stuff that has occurred since is not something I could have predicted, but that bad stuff (I'm talking about the insurgency, civilian deaths, etc etc) has happened is.

Iraq isn't, and never was, a valid response to 9/11. Iraq also didn't turn out to have ANY WMD, rather than what many believed (that it wasn't a threat). Since both of these were foreseeable, the war and "peace" in Iraq is fair and legitimate grounds for criticism.

[Mule]

Stuart, here's my answer for the second time.

Stuart, to someone not so deep in their hatred for America the offensive part of the article is that it treats as fact all the koran flushing and torture statements from detainees which are COMPLETELY unproven. Remember, if these guys were detained by brother muslims they woulf be hanging from their feet with electrodes on their gonads.

350, a little bit more hatred for America & you'll be an al queda draft pick. So American soldiers bombing Japan during wwII is equivalent to suicide bombers killing innocent civillians for no particular reason? You should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking that on a memorial day weekend. And you should move to Syria.

[350HP930]

Man, if you think that america was attacked on 9/11 'for no particular reason' you are ignorant beyond belief.

I am pretty sure the pilots of the enola gay killed a lot more innocent civilians than the 9/11 hijackers did but instead of dying for their cause they headed back home and had medals pinned on their chests for their actions.

I see you prefer to idolize some mass murderers while I think they all have blood on their hands. So who is worse, the foreigners who celebrated the attacks of 9/11 or people like you who celebrate our own country's slaughter of the innocent? They are all the same IMHO, and its pretty clear what group you fall into.

If anyone needs to move somewhere, perhaps you should slink back to the trailer park where your parents neglected your mental development and stay there.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Mule
Stuart, here's my answer for the second time.

Stuart, to someone not so deep in their hatred for America the offensive part of the article is that it treats as fact all the koran flushing and torture statements from detainees which are COMPLETELY unproven. Remember, if these guys were detained by brother muslims they woulf be hanging from their feet with electrodes on their gonads.

I dont think it did that all, Mule.

It reports that other people, ie the ACLU, made certain assertions about those events. It reports what those people claim is support for their assertions (ie, FBI docs etc) , and it reports the rebuttal of those assertions from the Penatgon and Dept Defence.

The article makes no claim of fact beyond the who, what, where of the first hand information.

You guys really need to get over Al Jazeera. They are a GOOD in thing in the ME,. However they are never going to be a cheer squad for US foreign policy like the US media.

[rcecale]

These "innocents" that you speak of were also the source and supporters for a military that was conducting this type of "warfare." And I use that term "warfare" quite loosely.

Historians outside Japan estimate that at least five million captive foreign civilians and prisoners of war were brutally murdered by the Japanese military between 1937 and 1945. To that figure, can be added hundreds of thousands of victims who were slowly murdered by starvation, disease, and beatings in Japanese prisoner of war and internment camps, and hundreds of thousands of women who were brutally raped by Japanese soldiers. The appalling rape figure includes two hundred thousand women in Japanese-occupied countries who were forced into sexual slavery in Japanese Imperial Army brothels. Finally, we cannot forget the terrible fate of hundreds of prisoners of war who were murdered by the Japanese Army's infamous Unit 731 in the course of horrible biological experiments.

Innocent? Ummm, not so much.

Randy

[bryanthompson]

I'm just upset that the we as taxpayers paid for the korans to be bought in the first place. What happened to separation of church and state?

[350HP930]

Originally posted by rcecale
These "innocents" that you speak of were also the source and supporters for a military that was conducting this type of "warfare." And I use that term "warfare" quite loosely.
. . . .
Innocent? Ummm, not so much.

Many US citizens are also supporters, though ignorant of the details, of US military and foriegn policy. Those policies have resulted in the deaths of millions over the past century.

I don't think that means our civilians should be the victims of violence and aggression.

Is that what you are asserting, because you appear to be using the 'they were supporters of evil' argument that osama's fans used to justify their acts against our people.

Perhaps once you get over your lust for the death of foreigners you might actually start to notice that your brand of hate is no better than the other side's.

[rcecale]

Originally posted by 350HP930
Many US citizens are also supporters, though ignorant of the details, of US military and foriegn policy. Those policies have resulted in the deaths of millions over the past century.

Those same policies have SAVED the lives of millions around the world over the same past century.

Is that what you are asserting, because you appear to be using the 'they were supporters of evil' argument that osama's fans used to justify their acts against our people.

What I'm "asserting" is that those same people you say were innocent, weren't. The Japanese race as a whole was under the belief that THEY were a superior race and that any other race, particularly the Chinese and Koreans, were some form of "sub-human" that didn't deserve to live.

Sure, you'll probably find some Americans today who feel that way, and you and I would agree those people are sick. But that is not the predominant American mentality. That is NOT our way of life.

Perhaps once you get over your lust for the death of foreigners you might actually start to notice that your brand of hate is no better than the other side's.

Perhaps once you get over YOUR hatred of anyone who has a different POV than you, you'll actually see that YOUR brand of hate is EXACTLY LIKE the other side's.

Randy

[350HP930]

Originally posted by rcecale
What I'm "asserting" is that those same people you say were innocent, weren't. The Japanese race as a whole was under the belief that THEY were a superior race and that any other race, particularly the Chinese and Koreans, were some form of "sub-human" that didn't deserve to live.

Sure, you'll probably find some Americans today who feel that way, and you and I would agree those people are sick. But that is not the predominant American mentality. That is NOT our way of life.

You are starting to sound like alfred1 there randy.

The fact is that at the same time that many japanese thought themselves racially superior to those around them, many white americans felt the same way.

How many of these double standards are you going to come up with to support your 'our terrorists are better than their terrorists' line of reasoning?

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by 350HP930
Man, if you think that america was attacked on 9/11 'for no particular reason' you are ignorant beyond belief.

I am pretty sure the pilots of the enola gay killed a lot more innocent civilians than the 9/11 hijackers did but instead of dying for their cause they headed back home and had medals pinned on their chests for their actions.

I see you prefer to idolize some mass murderers while I think they all have blood on their hands. So who is worse, the foreigners who celebrated the attacks of 9/11 or people like you who celebrate our own country's slaughter of the innocent? They are all the same IMHO, and its pretty clear what group you fall into.

If anyone needs to move somewhere, perhaps you should slink back to the trailer park where your parents neglected your mental development and stay there.

My father fought in W.W.II, lost friends at Peal Harbor and would kick your pussy liberal ass if he was alive. You make me ashamed that I went to UF back in the 80. I'm just glad that when I was there, banti-American POSs hadn't invested the town yet.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by 350HP930
You are starting to sound like alfred1 there randy.

The fact is that at the same time that many japanese thought themselves racially superior to those around them, many white americans felt the same way.

How many of these double standards are you going to come up with to support your 'our terrorists are better than their terrorists' line of reasoning?

You do know that it is a proven fact that Japan vwas trying to build an atom bomb to use on the country you hate, the USA, likeb they did at Pearl Harbor. We didn't march Jap POWs to death and beat them like was done in the Batton Death martch. So no, it was not the same!!!

[350HP930]

My grandfather fought in WWII. My dad served in the navy during vietnam. What does that have to with the atrocities committed in those wars or the current ones our government is committing? Neither of them let their service get in the way in being able to tell the difference between right and wrong.

Too bad you are such a pussy that you have to claim your dead dad would beat my ass instead of making such stupid threats yourself.

What kind of passive-aggressive BS is that anyways? Is that your way of respecting a deceased veteran?

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by 350HP930
My grandfather fought in WWII. My dad served in the navy during vietnam. What does that have to with the atrocities committed in those wars or the current ones our government is committing? Neither of them let their service get in the way in being able to tell the difference between right and wrong.

Too bad you are such a pussy that you have to claim your dead dad would beat my ass instead of making such stupid threats yourself.

What kind of passive-aggressive BS is that anyways? Is that your way of respecting a deceased veteran?

Don't think that I won't beat your anti-American ass, as I will. I'm just a few hours north of you anytime you want to make a trip in your 350 HP 930. You have no resect you any veterans. God, POS like you make me want to puke, I have friends currently serving and you make them seick as well. Any time you want to make a trip, and leave your aclu lawyers home. You are an insult to every American who has served this country!!!