Guys...I'm a Racist!

[K. Roman]

So, if you work hard in school and search for a job right out of school, and you are not white and have good grades that should do the trick? What about all the white kids who don't have to work hard and still get a good job? Things are more complicated than the original post.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by tobster1911
SO you are a sexist too???? Why do you assume the slower runner is female?

...because her knees will still be sore from 'tryouts'...

[ronin]

Originally posted by 125shifter
The best way I heard to describe the need for afirmative action was this:

A coach has to pick one new runner for his track team. He has a choice of two runners. The faster one has perfect form. The other runner is just a hair slower and his form is very rough. Which should he pick?

The obvious would be the faster, but the slightly slower runner has more potential as his form improves with good coaching. The better choice is the slower runner.

This could be applied to a good student that came from a lower academically rated school.

actually, the obvious choice would be the slower runner. (for the reasons that you have mentioned) however, the flaw with this argument is to automatically assume that the slower runner is at the beginning of his learning process, as to where the "perfect" one is already at the end

[gaijindabe]

This thread is useless without pictures.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by widebody911
...because her knees will still be sore from 'tryouts'...

The only possible answer.

[ChrisBennet]

Some data points:
- Colleges admit students based on the obvious things but they also admit students that are less acadmically qualified in order to have a diverse student body.
- Many colleges have a sort of "affirmative action" that allows (wealthy but) stupid people to go the same colleges that their parents went to.

Personally, I (and the Supreme Court?) think the diversity thing has merit.
Other than that, I think the laws should be color blind.
-Chris

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by CamB
So, race aside, would you agree it is true that upbringing and access to education affect a person's ability to get higher education and a good job?

Absolutely! But that's nothing compared to the boost some non-whites get regardless of upbringing. The list is too long of people I've known (including me) that have been passed over for promotions in favor of someone with less education, less time in, and less talent who happened to, 99 times out of 100, be non-white or female or worse (for the guy passed over)-both. As far as school goes, Ive never heard of a "United White Man's College Fund" but I'll bet the world would have a real problem with that. Also, I find it amazing that a non-white can get into a college that will refuse a white guy-even though they have the same GPA. There is NO such thing as equality, I assure you. But it's the white guy who is the minority today.

Do I dislike non-whites? That's what you might think based on my above comments. The answer is "no". I hate a system that allows people to take advantage of it to the detriment of anyone regardless of race. If a carrot is dangled in front of a non-white, what should he/she do? Say no? Hah! I had a good friend (black) who was quite intelligent. He and I car pooled to school. He confided in me the list of advanteges afforded him by the school. No tuition, no book fees, lower GPA required to enroll. He made no apologies. He said he would play it for all he was worth to get where he wanted to go. I had ZERO problem with him doing that. He was a motivated, intelligent guy who worked the system to his advantage. He'd be an idiot to do otherwise.

Am I wary of non-whites? Sometimes. I had another friend who lived in a black neighborhood. When visiting me he marveled at how I would leave my doors unlocked and keys in the ignition (in the garage). He said he can't even drive down his street with the doors unlocked for fear of getting carjacked. He also has to deadbolt the hell out of his doors at home. He told me that he even sneaks things he buys (Tvs, stereos, furniture, etc) into his home in the dark so that his neighbors won't see what he has and come and take it while he's at work. Is he prejudice? Hell Yeah! He's also black!

Am I a racist? I hope not. I think of all individuals as the same-until they prove me wrong. I try very hard to not let the above mentioned issues color my perception of the individual.

And for those who whine about the "bad white slave traders" and generations of oppression-those black slaves were sold by other black tribes. The same color oppresion continues in Africa. There is plenty of blame to go around on that one.

[CamB]

Originally posted by mikester
In a liberal studies class that I was required to take I was forced to watch "Once were warriors."

I'm not over it but hey, it was boba fett.

Geeez, that musta been a shock. The fairytale of Jake the Muss is hardly happy watching.

[CamB]

Originally posted by Sebring77
But it's the white guy who is the minority today.

I'll have another go at the "rationale" - note that I actually am only semi-subscribed to it. It has flaws.

Basically, the concept is that if you have a specific % representation of different races in the population, and that same % is not represented in college education outcomes, then an affirmative action style rationale exists to change from a goal of equality of access (what most of you guys want) to equality of outcome.

It is a flawed concept, IMHO, but quite well meaning. It presupposes that the same underrepresented minorities in college outcomes are underrepresented because the same minorities are overrepresented in poverty.

That is why I referred to race as a proxy for poverty.

I guess theoretically there comes a time when the equality of access and outcome become the same, and affirmative action drops away.

This is a pretty interesting discussion though.

[alf]

Originally posted by ChrisBennet
Personally, I (and the Supreme Court?) think the diversity thing has merit.
Other than that, I think the laws should be color blind.
-Chris

I concur, and that is what Affirmative Action is meant to do. How it is executed is another story...

BTW, there are more races than just Black and White in the US. Curious why so little is discussed about Asians, Pacific Islanders, Natives, Hispanics, Jews, etc.

[Moses]

Originally posted by CamB
I'll have another go at the "rationale" - note that I actually am only semi-subscribed to it. It has flaws.

Basically, the concept is that if you have a specific % representation of different races in the population, and that same % is not represented in college education outcomes, then an affirmative action style rationale exists to change from a goal of equality of access (what most of you guys want) to equality of outcome.

It is a flawed concept, IMHO, but quite well meaning. It presupposes that the same underrepresented minorities in college outcomes are underrepresented because the same minorities are overrepresented in poverty.

That is why I referred to race as a proxy for poverty.

I guess theoretically there comes a time when the equality of access and outcome become the same, and affirmative action drops away.

This is a pretty interesting discussion though.

Cam,

The entire argument for affirmative action is based on the presumption that minorities are economically disadvantaged and that "equal" access to higher education will ultimately level the economic playing field.

The problem is that the law assumes, for example that all blacks are economically disadvantaged. So the young affluent black man whose parents are both well educated gets preferential admission over a poor white from a family that has never had a member attend college.

If affirmative action were colorblind and preferences were given based on true economic disadvantage, blacks would likely be the largest beneficiary, but the advantage would go to blacks who are truly economically disadvantaged.

I support the goals of affirmative action, but the implementation is terribly flawed.

[CamB]

I totally agree Moses. I wonder if there is a better measure (not open to abuse) which accomplishes the goal?

We also have a slightly different style of affirmative action here aimed at medical school which aims to ensure that (underprivileged) minorities are better represented in the ranks of doctors. The goal is a belief in the cultural benefits of being able to go to a doctor of you own culture...

Mainly aimed at Maori and Pacific Islanders.

[Moses]

Originally posted by CamB
I totally agree Moses. I wonder if there is a better measure (not open to abuse) which accomplishes the goal?

California now has a program where the top 10% (I think) of every high school class is guaranteed admission to the University of California. So even in Watts or West Oakland, if you perform well, you're in.

Also, simply looking at your postal address and your parents income tax statements should provide a pretty clear view of who is disadvantaged and who is not.

[CamB]

and your parents income tax statements

I wish! There are enough rich people fiddling their taxes and - on the other side - middle class people with a number of children or high costs of living, to mean that different inequalities arise.

But you're generally right. The 10% rule is interesting, although I'm guessing plenty of people ***** about that one too

[alf]

Moses
I am not sure if it is about leveling the economic playing field, it is about taking Race and Gender out of the equation.

If you look at the latest census, there are some minority groups that have higher educational and income levels than whites. Perhaps AA worked for those groups.

Affirmative Action is not only about Blacks, it is also about Women, other minorities, disable vets etc.

[SlowToady]

I agree with a lot of what has been said here, and Cam is right, it's an interesting discussion. I understand the design goals of A.A. but from my point of view, the implementation didn't turn out too well.

Mike, we seem to have a bit in common. Except most of my burns are from Fords Pit was awesome, except in the winter.

So, if you work hard in school and search for a job right out of school, and you are not white and have good grades that should do the trick? What about all the white kids who don't have to work hard and still get a good job? Things are more complicated than the original post.

And this is a total over generalization. I'll echo() mike's reply.

That's interesting about the Cali school system, I hadn't heard they were doing that. Hope it turns out well.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by CamB
and your parents income tax statements

I wish! There are enough rich people fiddling their taxes and - on the other side - middle class people with a number of children or high costs of living, to mean that different inequalities arise.

Snipped......

Umm, not that many Mr. U.S. expert.

[K. Roman]

So, then why is he claiming he's a racist again?

[Mulhollanddose]

[alf]

There must be a better glass.