Herniated/Ruptured Disc?

[IROC]

I've had the good fortune of screwing up my back this week. From what I can tell, I probably have, as a minimum, a herniated disc and might possibly have a ruptured disc. I did this Monday evening and even today the pain is unbearable (it gets to the point where even walking is difficult or impossible) if I sit or stand for more than about 30 minutes.

The thing that concerns me is that it doesn't seem to be getting any better. I've hurt my back in the past, but it has gotten better (the pain would be bearable) after a couple of days. Could I have ruptured a disc? What happens now? How does this get fixed? I have an appointment with an orthopedic specialist on Monday.

Mike

[dhoward]

Don't have surgery.

[ronb]

I've been there and you can heal from it. Ice, every 20 minutes. Even though it's uncomfortable, it's important. Anti-inflamatories - advil etc. Also 2 teaspoons turmeric 3x per day beat up into juice or something (a natural anti-inflamatory that works quite well).

It takes time to heal a herniated disk. There's a great protocol out there from a sports trainer (and ex-marine) named Pete Egoscue. The book is called "Pain Free" it deals with alignment / re-aligning years of slow postural degradation; you might THINK you have good posture etc, but perhaps not. Worth going to one of their clinics etc if you're nearby. Website = www.egoscue.com

Think about following an anti-inflamatory diet for a few months; it can make a HUGE difference.

After a week or so of ice, and laying down, think about gentle swimming as rehab / floating as rehab - it takes the strain off the muscles, allows them to get out of spasm.

There's a decent book out there called "Heal Your Own Back" it has some great "emergency" excercizes for responding to an injury. Those gentle counter bends work immediately.

I went from being unable to do anything (i was in huge pain, couldn't sit, couldn't bend more than 10 degrees) to complete healing, and back to a very physical life including a lot of yoga and martial arts (and heavy lifting and hauling firewood and etc)

Get those 2 books immediately, surgery, often reccomended usually only offers TEMPORARY relief - a few years later the weak spot will move further up or down the spine, and you'll be right where you are again today. Lots of studies showing this. Of course this is an automobile forum and I am not a surgeon; but again, my experience was complete healing from a condition that I was advised to get surgery on immediately (ie go straight from MRI into surgery. I said no)

If you want more information, feel free to PM me.

[ErVikingo]

Got two blown ones myself (L4-L5 + L5-S1 if I remember correctly), never had surgery and function normally at least 11 months out of every year (including vintage racing).

My brother has had surgery 5 times and he still in pain.

My solution, anti-inflamatories, prednisone (medrol pack), careful slow movements and after you are back to speed, exercise to strengthen your abdomen and back muscles. Works like a charm but, first couple of weeks will be hell.....

Oh yeah, rubber sole shoes from now on.

[IROC]

Good advice. I've read some books and take the normal precautions to avoid injury, but I have been lax in my stretching exercises over the past few years (hence the re-injury). I am pretty physically active, so lack of exercise isn't the issue. In fact, this episode was precipitated by doing leg presses.

The only thing that concerns me is that this time it has lasted alot longer than previous injuries. Lots of ice/ibuprofen the first two days. I am going to avoid surgery at all costs as it never seems to be a permanent solution in these cases.

Thanks for the advice. I just hope it isn't really bad this time (ruptured).

Mike

[gchappel]

If the pain is that bad go see your doctor. There are disk herniations that NEED surgery, and need it now. There are disk herniations that you can work through. Get some diagnostic testing to help decided which one, if any, you have. Self diagnosis, especially if it is not getting better, is not wise. Ask around town, there will be one doctor that tends to have better outcomes than everyone else. If you want to self treat at least make sure you have no focal muscle weakness and reflexes are normal- can you stand on your tippy toes on each foot- muscle weakness=go see a doctor.
Bedrest, pain medicine and muscle relaxants can do a lot, you don't need to suffer.

[IROC]

Well, I am typically a "I'm not going to the doctor" type, but this pain has been incredible. That what makes me fear that I may have actually ruptured the disk. I'm doing better (i.e. I can walk now) but still have tremendous pain if I sit or stand for more that about an hour. I went to work yesterday and had to leave at lunchtime and was barely able to walk by the time I got home.

I have an appointment Monday. Hopefully this will ease up some before then. Like you mentioned, though, what worries me is that this isn't getting markedly better.

Mike

[Nathans_Dad]

I certainly would go to your doctor and get it checked out. The concerning signs for nerve impingement include numbness or tingling in the groin or legs as well as muscular weakness in the legs. If you are having either of these type symptoms then you should get it checked out ASAP. If your symptoms are limited to back pain, then sometimes things can be dealt with with pain medications, rest, physical therapy, steroid injections, etc. Lots of options. Again, go see your doctor...

[Nathans_Dad]

Oh yeah, acute back pain is often caused by muscular strain and spasm so you might not have a disc problem at all. Probably will need an MRI to sort it out.

[lendaddy]

My father suffered from terrible back pain for 20 years. He had surgery, traction equipment, blah blah. He would literally collapse from the pain on a semi-regular basis. Episodes involved 2-5 days in bed.

Then he went to the doctor for sleep aptnia(sp). They wanted to do surgery for that but first sent him to Michigan State University for a 3 day "sleep study". They found that he was getting ZERO R.E.M sleep. The doctors there asked if he also had back problems. He thought that was odd for them to ask but told them his story. They said without R.E.M. sleep your muscles never fully relax and that is why his back gave him problems. They prescribed a sleeping aid and he has not had one incident of back pain since (over 10 years now). FWIW.

[IROC]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Rick - I haven't had any numbness, tingling or weakness (I can do the tippy toes thing on each leg OK). I did have alot of pain down the backs of both legs and into my calves, but that has subsided for the most part. Also, could muscular spasm account for severe pain for multiple days? This has been killing me since Tuesday.

Lendaddy - interesting that you mention the sleep apnea thing. I don't think (?) that I suffer from that, but I also have a condition called atrial fibrillation and there have been links between that and sleep apnea also. Hmmm...

I'm feeling better today than I have, but I have had luxury of laying around and watching alot of college football (even though my Vols lost to Vanderbilt). :>)

Thanks again.

Mike

[lendaddy]

Mike,

it wasn't the apnea that caused it, that was just the circumstance that lead to his learning that he had a sleep problem. Atleast that's how I understand it. But maybe the snorring kept him from deep sleep, that is possible. Best of luck.

[Nathans_Dad]

IROC, the shooting pain is an irritated nerve so that does sound a bit more concerning for a nerve impingement. To answer your other question, yes muscular back strains can hurt like hell for several weeks before finally subsiding.

[speeder]

Sorry to hear about that pain, unfortunately I know it all too well. In 2002 I had surgery, (micro discectomy on L4-L5/L5-S1), I was one of those cases that did need surgery. I had a ruptured disc that had a fragment break loose and float up my spinal cord until it wedged between some nerves and my spine. If the mafia putting your nuts in a vise is "10" on the pain scale, mine was about 9.8, and all of the books/chanting/faith healers/etc. in the world would not have done a damn thing.

I realise that some peoples' opinion stems from a story of unsuccessful back surgery, but you need to get advice from a top drawer neurosurgeon who specialises in disc injuries and has seen your MRI, not from us. (OK, I guess that was my advice, but it comes from direct experience).

My younger sister, who is an M.D., just had fusion surgery on the same two discs as mine 2 weeks ago, apparently her discs were not save-able. I was sceptical of anyone needing this, especially a relatively young and healthy woman, but she says that there was no other viable option. It is a lengthy recovery period for her, and believe me she researched the living daylights out of her situation. She is a brilliant pathologist who did her fellowship at Mayo, to give you an idea of the medical minds she has access to.

Lastly, I am not dismissing the (very good) advice given here about books and self-healing programs and physical therapy. Even after successful surgery, if in fact you even need it, a strong maintenence program is indispensable. I wish you the best, I know that pain is *special*.

[IROC]

Yeah, "special" is a good word for the pain. I wouldn't wish this on anybody. The pain has gotten better today, but I have been able to spend alot less time on my feet. The disconcerting thing is that the pain is still pretty serious - basically 5 full days after the initial injury and I struggle to stand up from a sitting position. Walking is still difficult. Hopefully I will find out Monday what my options are.

Thanks again.

Mike

[Moses]

Originally posted by dhoward
Don't have surgery.

Pretty bold advice considering none of us know the nature or extent of Mike's injury.

It could be a simple herniated disk that may heal over time or it could be an unstable vertebral fracture that, left untreated, could lead to permanent disability.

Get your injury properly diagnosed, then make a decision about treatment.

[Joeaksa]

Mike,

How old are you? Where is the injury? Makes a bit of difference where it is and if you are an old fart like me or 20 years old.

I had a rough landing in a parachute many years ago (do not ask, did not have a choice) and compressed C5-C6, the lower neck area. Worked with it for years with pain pills and muscle relaxers, which did nothing but hide the situation. Finally the flight surgeon overseas gave me some Indocid and it changed my life. I could move my neck and back freely again. Problem is that its also rough on the stomach and can cause bleeding.

Took that for several years then Celebrex came out. Tried it and again more relief. Then when Vioxx came out went on that for a year or so then stopped when the heart issues came out and went back on Celebrex. I am one of those who have no choice of using a Cox5 med, its either that or not turn my neck. It literally locks up due to the pain. Will take the risk, otherwise life is not worth living for me.

I have a friend who had the same situation. She was on Celebrex for a long time and decided to get the operation to fuse the two disks. 3-5 months rehab and lots of pain meds. It worked for 18 months now has returned to the same problem and pain. She is now back on Celebrex and wishes that she had never had the operation. Your mileage may vary but unless the docs can tell me 100% it will work, I am not going under the knife for an operation on my spinal area while there are meds that do take care of the pain.

I have tried about every med available and the Cox5 meds are the only ones that work for me. Please do not take the damm muscle relaxers that the docs try to give everyone. Every person I talk with on this subject say that the doctors try to pump them full of Flexiril or the like and for most it just does not work.

Get an MRI and see what the problem is. My last one shows exactly what and where the problem is. The tech came to me and described the symptoms down to a "T" just reading the film. As well for me nothing worked but heat and asprin. Ibruprofen is worthless but for some reason the asprin helps but then it is an anti-inflamatory agent.

Hope you get this figured out and go see a doctor. You need to know what is going on to make an educated decision.

JoeA

[dhoward]

Originally posted by Moses
Pretty bold advice considering none of us know the nature or extent of Mike's injury.

It could be a simple herniated disk that may heal over time or it could be an unstable vertebral fracture that, left untreated, could lead to permanent disability.

Get your injury properly diagnosed, then make a decision about treatment.

Not at all bold.
I speak from experience.
Should surgical repair of a disk be suggested, look into alternative, less-invasive forms of therapy. IDET, etc...

[Jims5543]

Skimmed to the end, I will go back and read responses tomarrow.

I just paid $650 for an MRI to find out WTF was going on with my back. One wrong move and I could barely breath let alone move.

It turned out to be a bulging disk between my L1 - L2.

I asked what my long term plan should be and doctor said strong trunk. I need to develop my abs and obliques. He also said pot belly is forbidden. Every 10 lbs I gain will be 10X more pain.

We meet again Monday to look at the actual MRI and not the report. Then he will give me stretching exercises and trunk exercises to do.

Go to a doctor, at the very least get an x-ray and possibly an MRIand see what exactly you have going on.

Good luck.

[CRH911S]

Get an MRI and complete blood workup. Degenerative disc disease and ankylosing spondylitis come to mind. Sounds like physical therapy is in your future as well. Lose some weight, watch your posture, at all times and even while your sleeping. Strengthen your abdominal muscles and avoid foods with pesticides and preservatives. I herniated L3-L4, L4-L5. Took about 2 years to get over the pain. At first consider working out in a pool and avoid any exercise that impacts the load bearing joints. Last but not least go see a doctor. Good luck.