Jesus was

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally posted by dhoward
I had been considering opening a "Shoppe de Frommage" in northern Israel.

How's "Cheeses of Nazareth" grab you?

Only if it's Swiss Cheese, eh?

[IROC]

Originally posted by livi
I did not claim Jesus never existed. I humbly stated that I am personally not convinced he did. The comparison with dinosaurs is not fair. Any attempt to 'prove' his existence is point less anyway. If a person beliefs thats good enough. If a person does not - well thats fine too.

Besides the whole thread theme from the start was on the joking side - no need scrutinizing possible evidence pro or con.

Good post, Markus.

No one can prove that Jesus actually existed. If one chooses to believe he did, then that is a personal choice that you have made. Others have looked at the evidence and chosen not to believe. Their decision not to believe is no less valid than your choice to believe.

Mike

[RPKESQ]

"how can people who know very little about Jesus or the bible make statements as if they were subject matter experts?"

In my experience this covers about 99% of the so-called true believers. Their idea of bible study is to memorize verses and then assign a meaning to them. Apparently they never had to do any proper research and have never learned about logic.

[sammyg2]

I can't prove to you that the sky is blue if you refuse to pay attention to the facts.

It is easier to prove that Jesus existed than to prove that you exist.
His life is much better docummented than yours is. In fact it would be difficult to find another individual from history who's life is better documented than Jesus.

[cashflyer]

Originally posted by sammyg2
...His life is much better docummented than yours is.

I dunno... between the IRS, CIA, FBI, FAA, PCA, the local PD, NRA, Customs, USCIS, the clinic, and my bartender, I think there is a substantial amount of information about me.

[onlycafe]

i have been thinking of a name change for my restaurant, where i bake a lot of pizza, from
"the only cafe", to , "passion of the crust".

[RPKESQ]

“It is easier to prove that Jesus existed than to prove that you exist.
His life is much better documented (sic) than yours is. In fact it would be difficult to find another individual from history who's (sic) life is better documented than Jesus.”

Please list your sources on this amazing claim. The bible does not count, if you don’t understand why, then you don’t understand how any basic historical research is done or reviewed.

[cashflyer]

[IROC]

Originally posted by sammyg2
In fact it would be difficult to find another individual from history who's life is better documented than Jesus.

I have examined the evidence and chosen not to believe. If you have some ground-breaking evidence that no one else has put forward yet, then I'm all ears. What I have seen so far is not compelling in my opinion. You see it differently. That's fine.

Mike

[87coupe]

Originally posted by RPKESQ
�It is easier to prove that Jesus existed than to prove that you exist.
His life is much better documented (sic) than yours is. In fact it would be difficult to find another individual from history who's (sic) life is better documented than Jesus.�

Please list your sources on this amazing claim. The bible does not count, if you don�t understand why, then you don�t understand how any basic historical research is done or reviewed.

The Dead Sea scrolls for one. Quick history lesson:

The Dead Sea scrolls were found by a Bedouin goat hurder in the spring of 1947, and had been untouched since the time of their writing.

The DS scrolls were written between 200 B.C.E. to 68 C.E.

So here we have untouched historical documents confirming the existence of Jesus. Deity or not, he existed.

I can understand the informed persons skeptisism with the modern day Bible; from Emporor Constantine to the Catholic church, there are valid reasons to wonder. However, even discarding the Bible as a source you still have more than enough historical evidence to confirm the existence of Jesus, and since people get so worked up about this subject, let me again state "Deity or not".

[sammyg2]

Just to be clear, we are not talking about whether he was the son of god or if he performed miracles, we are discussing wether or not Jesus was a real person and walked on this earth.

you have chosen to ignore the facts. No matter what evidence is presented that will not change. Jesus could come back to earth and walk right up to you and you still wouldn't believe because you don't want to believe he existed. For some reason that makes you more comfortable.

I find it curious how the vast majority of scholars and history experts (no matter what the religious belief) believe that Christ existed, but you don't.

[livi]

I can appreciate how religious people take me for a fool as there obviously are compelling evidence that Jesus was a physical person.

Same way I think of people who disregard the compelling evidence of evolution and the obvious fact that the human race had a common ancestor with the apes before they split up in two branches.

What ever make us happy.

[IROC]

Originally posted by sammyg2
Just to be clear, we are not talking about whether he was the son of god or if he performed miracles, we are discussing wether or not Jesus was a real person and walked on this earth.

I am only stating that I do not find compelling evidence that the Jesus of the bible (the saviour of man, miracle worker, risen from the dead guy) existed.

Did some guy named Jesus exist? Very possibly....but then, that's not really newsworthy, is it?

I don't "believe" things just because other people do. I make my own decisions based on all the information I can find. If I'm wrong (and I have been before), I'll admit it. BTDT.

If someone walked up to me and told me they were Jesus - you're right - I would not believe them. I would hope you wouldn't either...

Mike

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by livi
...the obvious fact that the human race had a common ancestor with the apes before they split up in two branches.

This I have got to hear. What are these obvious facts? Similarities sure, but common ancestry?

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by IROC
If someone walked up to me and told me they were Jesus - you're right - I would not believe them. I would hope you wouldn't either...

Never been to Mexico have you. I was on a boat with Noah and Jesus. Snorkeling was never safer......

[87coupe]

LOL

[cashflyer]

I know Jesus is real because he and his cousin painted my fence last week.

But seriously, although nobody asked...
I believe that Jesus was a real person.
I believe in natural selection.
I do not believe in evolution.

I believe that some of the bible's stories are just that - stories that were meant to teach lessons, not to be historical accounts. However I also believe that some of the bible's stories are based upon and recount actual events. And that any good Christian will endeavor to learn and understand the difference.

Originally posted by tobster1911
I was on a boat with Noah and Jesus. Snorkeling was never safer......

Just don't take Jonah with you!

[sammyg2]

History is full of writing of Jesus, whiten by scholars who did not worship him or believe in Christianity. The Romans, pagans, and Jews documented the life and death of Jesus and they did not do it to perpetuate a myth.

written by Tacitus (c. A.D. 56-117)
"Nero fabricated scapegoats—and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius’ reign by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilatus. But in spite of this temporary setback the deadly superstition had broken out afresh, not only in Judea (where the mischief had started) but even in Rome".

Tacitus hated both Christians and their namesake, Christ. He therefore had nothing positive to say about what he referred to as a “deadly superstition.” He did, however, have something to say about it. His testimony establishes beyond any reasonable doubt that the Christian religion not only was relevant historically, but that Christ, as its originator, was a verifiable historical figure of such prominence that He even attracted the attention of the Roman emperor himself.

Suetonius was also a roman critic of Christ, and wrote around A.D. 120:
“Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbance at the instigation of Chrestus (Cristos in Greek) , he [Claudius—KB] expelled them from the city”

Celsus, a second-century pagan philosopher, produced a vehement attack upon Christianity by the title of True Discourse (c. A.D. 178). In that vile document, Celsus argued that Christ owed his existence to the result of fornication between Mary and a Roman soldier named Panthera. As he matured, Jesus began to call himself God—an action, said Celsus, which caused his Jewish brethren to kill him. Yet as denigrating as his attack was, Celsus never went so far as to suggest that Christ did not exist.

Josephus was a 1st century jewish scholar born in 37 AD. He was not simpathetic to the christians, in fact just the opposite was true. he disliked the christians and worked for the romans. He wrote in The Jewish Antiquities:
"And there arose about this time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed we should call him a man; for he was a doer of marvelous deeds, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure. He led away many Jews, and also Greeks. This man was the Christ. And when Pilate had condemned him to the cross on his impeachment by the chief men among us, those who had loved him at first did not cease; for he appeared to them on the third day alive again, the divine prophets having spoken these and thousands of other wonderful things about him: and even now the tribe of Christians, so named after him, has not yet died out..."
This passage also exists in both Hebrew and Arabic versions.

Josephus did not remain mute regarding Christ in his later sections. Antiquities 20:9:1 relates that Ananus brought before the Sanhedrin “a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law, and condemned them to be stoned to death.”

Even if we did not have the New Testament or Christian writings, we would be able to conclude from such non-Christian writings as Josephus, the Talmud, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger that: (1) Jesus was a Jewish teacher; (2) many people believed that he performed healings and exorcisms; (3) he was rejected by the Jewish leaders; (4) he was crucified under Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius; (5) despite this shameful death, his followers, who believed that he was still alive, spread beyond Palestine so that there were multitudes of them in Rome by 64 A.D.

[livi]

To put it simple. If you believe in the Evolution according to Charles Darwin, there is no other way. As a matter of fact, at some point the human race has a common ancestor with just about every thing living on this planet. The apes form an evolutionary branch very close to our own making them the species we are closest related with. Hence a common ancestor somewhere down the line is very plausible.

At least as plausible as the notion of Jesus (in my mind).

And hey, whats wrong with apes anyway ?

[cashflyer]

Originally posted by livi
And hey, whats wrong with apes anyway ?

I hate every ape I see
From chimpan-A to chimpanzee ...