Tool purchase ethics

[Dixie]

Use the HArbor Freight ones. The heat from welding will eventually kill the springs in either make. Might as well kill the cheaper ones.

[Joeaksa]

I buy some cheap tools but not many. Time and time the cheap ones fail or last a use or three then break, where the one from a good source last forever or is warranted.

[Rick Lee]

I was doing a brake flush at a pro shop during a PCA tech session a few wks. ago, where the pro wrench let me use his tools, including a vacuum bleeder. The box wrench set he had might have been Snap-On, didn't look fancy and he said it cost $400. I could break a LOT of HF tools before I spent $400 replacing them.

[AFJuvat]

For welding or other "high potential for damage" activities, go with HF tools. When\if they get screwed up, no great loss.

Most of HF stuff is junk, but you can find a few useful things. Their molded rubber dead blow hammers are pretty good. The socket rail sets they sell are good too.

AFJ

[turbo6bar]

The Chinese export the real cost of goods to the environment. The rinse water and chemicals used in the plating process end up in the river. Over here, EPA won't let a company fart without approval. It may be unfair to compare Chinese-made tools to those made in the US.

[air-cool-me]

its nice to just walk up to the truck and have the snap-on guy smile and take whatever you broke and replace it with a shiny brand new one....

[Hugh R]

After rounding out some rusted nuts with cheap sockets and then spending hours drilling and tapping, I buy only good quality sockets. I did buy a HF dial indicator but only to find TDC on #1 piston, the needle goes up and then down, didn't care about the reading. Use the good ones for measuring the drop of the cams though.

[craigster59]

The most expensive mistake is to buy cheap. Especially with tools. I tell that to my Wife all the time to justify my purchases...

[widebody911]

Ya know, the quality difference between the new Brand Name grips and the HF grips isn't that substatial, but the difference between those two pairs and the pair I bought several years ago is. The HF jaws are a little thinner, but the rivets on both of them are cheesier - the old pair I have has a more solid feel, and there's more play in both the name brand and HF grips. Note the gap between the rivet and the jaw on the new VG.

Either the Chinese are getting good, or the Americans are getting cheep.

I've used the really bad Chinese grips, and yes, you couldn't open a beer with them. These are not too bad, and for the money...

I paid $2300 for a US made lift that HF sells a direct knockoff of for $900, but the American company sent someone out to my house to replace a cylinder when it went out.

[snowman]

When I need tools, I by snapon. Why? Because they work better, they are worth the cost and if I become tired of them, I can sell them.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by snowman
When I need tools, I by snapon. Why? Because they work better, they are worth the cost and if I become tired of them, I can sell them.

Unfortunately, some of us don't wipe our asses with $100 bills...

[Zeke]

Good thread. I use a lot of tools and have for over 35 years. I'm a contractor. I've done it all from demo to concrete to framing, plastering, drywall and finish carpentry. Now, I'm a finish carpenter with some stud guns that haven't been out of their box for over 15 years. I've replaced some tools because they just wear out. I'm on my 3rd worn drive Skillsaw. My Milwaukee stuff is going strong; most of the PorterCable is good and the Makita is one of the best. But, I have several HF power tools, those orange Chicago deals. They work fine; a little noisier, but fine.

AFA hand tools for autos, I have some Proto, some SK, some Craftsman and a few orphans. Then there's the gear pullers, valve spring compressor and strait spring compressor, not to mention 3 floor jacks. All HF or equivalent. No problems.

Here's MY point: I know tools pretty well as a lifetime user of them. In other words, I've never had a desk job, ever. My hands are what brings home the bacon. So, I go look at a Delta 10" contractors saw. I used to have one in a shop. New ones are over 800 now. The HF one is 399. Wait...it's the same thing! Yes it is. Different color, but the same damn thing. I've looked at every screw, each wheel, the grinding on the table, the arbor the motor, it's all identical. I know the Delta saws are made in Taiwan, it says so on them.

I don't know about you, but there's no ethical question here. They both come from the same place on the same boat and then thru different distribution systems. The amount of money that goes off shore for the product itself is the same. Now, if the first part of the Delta distribution is an off shore company controlled by Delta to avoid taxes, it doesn't bother me that they don't get any of my money. And, if the importer/warehouse/distributor is a US company, I don't mind if he doesn't get any of my money either. But the next stop would be my local retailer, so now I have a choice of which US retailer gets my money, HF or The Home Defect, etc.

My choice is HF because theoretically less money went off shore and more stayed in my pocket to make the same decisions with again.

So, like Wayne says, most tools are made off shore. If you're gonna buy Asian made tools, why buy them at the top of the food chain? Yeah, you might feed a few local warehouse workers, but you can take that same money and feed a few store clerks and your family too.

The economics of this deal are how much goes off shore vs. how much stays here vs. how much you get for your money altogether and what quality you get. On the 10" table saw, it's a no brainer. On Makita, too, because most of it is made or assembled here. Just the raw materials and corporate profits (after US taxes) goes off shore. That's a very small percentage, I can live with that. There are no real situations where you can keep all the money in the US on a tool purchase unless it's a high priced specialty tool. There are no ethics to be considering, just economics. I'm just as much of flag waving American (that drives a Porsche ) as you.

And, what I do every day is 100% attributed to the GDP. No civil service, no gov't contract or subsidy just returning gov't money back into the economy. 100% earned GDP; no social security or unemployment insurance (never in 45 years of working). No illegals have ever worked for me directly, ever. No housecleaners here, I do it. I don't go to Mexico and buy anything to bring back. I don't go to Mexico or any foreign country and spend any US money. I don't buy foreign made much of anything and I don't go to Wallmart. Well, I guess my Levi's are now made off shore; shame on them. My shoes aren't if I can help it.

That's ethics. The rest is economics.

Come on Mul....come on, boy. You haven't tangled with me yet.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally posted by turbo6bar
The Chinese export the real cost of goods to the environment. The rinse water and chemicals used in the plating process end up in the river. Over here, EPA won't let a company fart without approval. It may be unfair to compare Chinese-made tools to those made in the US.

My $0.02:

Is it really so bad to have environmental policies that result in (heavens forbid) a better environment?

Also, the EPA has been a patsy agency for the Bush administration for the last six years. It has lost a lot of credibility among scientists and people genuinely concerned about the environment. Their "rubber stamping" of the Bush administration's assertion that "there is no global climate change" is particularly laughable.

While I agree with you that there is such a thing as too much regulation, I think blaming all of America's problems on the EPA is short-sighted and foolish. This is one agency that really SHOULD exist and should be well-funded. There are many others that should not be and I actually dislike government in general and typically default to "let the market take care of itself" positions on things. Government usually doesn't do anything except provide jobs to incompetent bumbling idiots that otherwise would never cut it in private practice or consolidate power for petty control - at the expense of business efficiency, productivity and personal advancement. The problem here is that corporations have proven time and again that they simply can't be trusted when it comes to what is in peoples' best interests and unfortunately some regulatory oversight here really is in the best interest of public health, safety and welfare.



Now, that said, I wonder if anyone here feels any guilt or remorse about buying the HF stuff either from the "it's part of the outsourcing problem" point of view or (as was pointed out) the "there's a reason they're so cheap" point of view. . .

It would be very difficult to simply boycott Chinese-made goods because they're so ubiquitous these days. Typically what I do is default to the highest-quality stuff and buy it from whomever makes it - domestic or foreign. I find that I buy very few things with the "Made in China" sticker on them as a result (I buy very few things with the "Made in the U.S.A. sticker on them too. . .) - this is a real testimony to the "quality" of Chinese (and perhaps of American) goods. Sometimes their stuff is adequate - more often than not it isn't.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by widebody911
Unfortunately, some of us don't wipe our asses with $100 bills...

Especially not the new ones...

[VINMAN]

Originally posted by AFJuvat
For welding or other "high potential for damage" activities, go with HF tools. When\if they get screwed up, no great loss.

Most of HF stuff is junk, but you can find a few useful things. Their molded rubber dead blow hammers are pretty good. The socket rail sets they sell are good too.

AFJ

I agree, I use cheap ones for panel clamps and other welding. I dont wont to ruin my good ones with welding spatter.
As far as HF's and Northern tools other stuff. I have a few of thier blast cabinets and shop press. I use them pretty frequently, and never had a problem with them.
All my main hand tools are either S/K or Craftsman with a bunch of Snap-On ratchets thrown in.

Other than that I avoid any tools with Neon colored handles!

[scottmandue]

To me tools are like, watches, guns, and automobiles... to a degree you get what you pay for. I like the feel of a good tool (boy am I leaving my self open) but then I am a technician and work mostly with screwdrivers and needle nose pliers where precision is more noticeable. I have a set of Chinese sockets that have been know to crack under heavy use... very annoying when your in the middle of a project and have to stop, wash the grease off your hands, and go buy another socket (at premium price because you are buying only one socket).

Having said that there are times when cheap tools make sense when you know the tool is going to be abused such as vice grips that are going to be used for welding. I wouldn't use my German screwdriver to open paint cans.

And at some point there is a diminishing amount of return on your investment.

To use my watch, gun, automobile analogy, If I were rich I would probably be just as happy with my Seiko as a Rolex, a Ruger works just as well as a HK, And I would be just as happy with GT3 as a CGT. Not that I wouldn't love to have a Rolex, HK, or a CGT just that you are paying two to three times as much money for something that is just a little bit nicer/well made.

[scottmandue]

And I find that hundred dollar bills chafe my a$$ so I have gone to using tens and twenties.

[VINMAN]

A wad of well used singles is as soft as a roll of Charmin!
( although Mr. Whipple would disagree....)

[snowman]

Buy the full sheets of bills, straight from the press. That way you can roll them up for easier dispensing.

Good tools are almost always worth buying. THere is nothing more expensive tban a cheep tool that dosen't do the job.

Recent example. Concrete drill bit, 5/8" need to drill 10 ea holes, 4 1/2" deep in concret Choice one, buy 8ea cheep drills that make random shaped holes, with difficulty, and wear out in a single hole. Cost $1.98ea ($16 total) OR buy one ea good Hilti carbide bit, drill all 10 holes, nice round holes, and still have a bit leftover thats good for 20 more holes. Cost $16.49ea

The good bit not only works better, lasts longer, and will be around if I need to do it again. It cost $half a buck more and I could probably sell it for $2.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Huh-huh. . . Scott likes the feel of a good tool. . . Huh-huh. . .