The greatest driver of all time? (spolier!)

[Tervuren]

Originally posted by svandamme
what era are you talking about here??

I'd say post WWII, Euro's had learned how to drive, but up until the 1930's, American's IMO where the better drivers when it came to corners. The Germans where king of engine's through the 30's though, not realy anything American to get the same acheivements.

[svandamme]

pre WW1 , i'm seeing one or 2 american names in the 24 Du Mans winners list
other then those 2 mostly English drivers... i guess Le Mans was an straight road back then???


post WW2 not much different, Fangio in F1 obviously , but we had Ascari in F1 , and others in GT racing...

first american post WW2 was Phil Hill , Le MAns in 58 and F1 in 62...

no americans in the pre WW2 list for the Eifelrennen , or Targa Florio , mostly germans , and italians...

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by pwd72s
Mario Andretti...from the bullrings of dirt tracks to competing against the effete little boys of F-1...he has raced against, and beaten, them all. Today's F-1 primadonnas aren't even close to being in the same league. In ALL forms of Racing, Mario did it, and he did it damned well!

Another vote for Mario... he could drive ANYTHING and win... and the F1 cars of his day were pretty much flying coffins with very few safely features and no electronic gadgets to pull you a$$ out of the fire if you forked up.

[scottmandue]

Hee hee...

[jluetjen]

I just stumbled across this on You Tube. Wow!!!

[svandamme]

thx Jluetjen, good save from the Nascar thing...

[scottmandue]

Well the thread is titled:
"greatest driver" not "greatest F1 driver"

FWIW I am a big MS fan and I am sad to see him go.

Besides if "greatest" is equal to the driver with the most fans RP may just edge out MS anyway.

[svandamme]

sorry , but going merrygoround for 400 laps, in a car that can't even accelerate properly because it's designed to go only WOT , and turn in one direction only, to me that's not driving at all...

next thing you know we'll have choochoo drivers in the running for greatest driver...

[jluetjen]

I'd have to agree, that to date Michael is the best. Period. Before him, each of the previous bests moved the bar a little bit further. Almost without exception, all of these guys were "Thinking mens racers" who could manage a race at the same time as driving faster then everyone else.

Fangio: Could sit in almost anything and be faster then the other guys. Great mechanical sympathy, so he would finish races when others wouldn't in an age of unreliable and unsafe cars. Really the first "Professional" as opposed to be a fast "gentlemen" racer.

Clark: Very fast and easy on the cars. Tough as nails, but polished up nice and could do a good interview too, even before the age of the race car drivers as Marketing Spokesmen.

Stewart: Very fast and easy on cars. Really the first of the classic "Marketing Spokesmen" and fitness fanatics in addition to his uncontested abilities in the car. Was a consistent winner in an age when cars were developing incredibly quickly, and yet he was still always at the front, even in a era of full of great drivers such as Brabham, Clark, Hill, McLaren, Hulme, Fittipaldi, Rindt, etc.

Lauda: After Stewart, he took race strategy to a whole new level. It wasn't just about being fast in the car, and in the race, but it was about being the master of set-up, developing the right tire relationships, the right team, etc. Tough doesn't begin to describe "Super Rat" after his ability to comeback after his crash.

Prost: Like Lauda, but even more intellectual and more of an organizer. He developed the whole idea of developing the team around himself by recruiting the right people, etc. Considering how well he organized the teams when he was in the driver's seat, it's curious that he wasn't successful managing his team from the front office...

Senna: He's really the odd man out. Undeniably smart, and fit. The thing that kept him at the front was unequalled speed and commitment in the car -- in spite of the social, organizational and political hurdles that he put in his own way. If it was a question of the fastest -- I'd have to say Senna. But if the question was "The greatest?", I'd have to say that he had way too many issues getting in the way of him being the best that he could be.

Foyt: Fast in any car, any day, any track. But like Senna, way too many issues off the track, especially when he opened his mouth. As a fan though, I did love his interviews.

Schumacher: Yeah, I'd have to say the greatest to date. He was almost as fast as Senna on any given day -- sometimes faster. But he has learned to be a better organizer then Prost, a better Spokesman then Stewart, and tougher then Lauda. He also gives better interviews the Senna, and motivates his team and the fan base far better then Foyt ever could imagine. While the Beneton team was mid-field at best when he got there (and the same with Jordon before that for the one race that he did with them), he was able to work within the team to move it up to World Champion caliber. But he learned about the value of the team there, and then went looking for deeper pockets -- Ferrari. Hardly a power-house when got there in spite of their big budgets. To be honest, Ferrari had pretty well managed deflated the careers of Mansel, Berger, Alesi and Prost before Schumacher arrived. Schumacher on the other hand was able to come to grips with the politics, and act as the core around which the team was built.

The rest they say -- is history...

[svandamme]

you forgot Ickx

[DaveE]

The vid was awesome, John! You gotta love the corner workers waving the blue flag to the likes of those two!!

By the way, I gave this thread a five star rating solely based on that clip......................

[MFAFF]

Dottore,

3 or 4 in a career is not many for sure.. but when its being compared against none its far to many..

And far from being biased against MS for his success...which certainly means he is the most successful and probably the best driver.. I admired his dedication to success...but the question is one of greatness..

It is not about the number of records one holds...but rather the manner in which one goes about one's sucess.....

And if you think his actions against Hill were 'debatable by reasonable men' then I'm not certain I agree with your definition. One of his greatest assets is his ability to instantly evaluate the situation and form the best course of action for himself...he knew that if he did not finish, all Hill had to do was complete the race in the points to be WC...and we are supposed to believe that in spite of all his acknowledged ability this did not influence his actions...

Gilles Villeneuve was argueably one of the greatest ever racing drivers.. yet his success was not in his wins or records.. but in his sheer passion in racing. He was not able to build a team around him.. or even develop a car...but manner in which he drove his races made it clear he wanted to race..winning was not an end in itself...

MS never gives that impression.. its all about the win...It makes him the most successful....no mean achievement; no mean feat..but not the greatest.

What I do agree with is however you see success as the sole arbiter of 'greatness'...whilst I see greatness as being a wider evaluation....

[JSDSKI]

Originally posted by Tervuren
In general, European racing drivers did not know how to handle corners, they just slowed and turned, no line, no speed estimation, that came from America with tracks like the Indy 500 requiring perferction. Schumacher on the other hand, has had to get his wins against top drivers and teams.

This is the silliest idea about motor racing I've ever read.

Originally posted by Tervuren Sammy, Mario still lived in the US, and had a heck of a time in F1 when he didn't live near any tracks, not a fun schedule. He was good, quite good, but also was better with mechanical cars, rather then electronic. I feel he'd of croaked in modern F1 even more.

Andretti was / is one of the most talented and smart drivers ever. He won poles, races, and championships in every type of car and racing that existed during his career (except Paris-Dakar or rally's I don't believe he ever competed) There were very few drivers as fast as he at his best. And he brought quite a few setup tricks to F1 that are still in use today. Very much under-rated for his setup and testing abilities.

Andretti would win in any era in any car.

[dagriff]

[scottmandue]

Stijn,

It's a joke... I said it's a joke son...


The way technology has changed in each era of car racing it is senseless to compare drivers from different decades. Who knows how Mario would do today if he were in his prime or how MS would have done back in the sixties. Might as well reminisce about "what if the red baron had a F-18?"

[dagriff]

Not that anyone would know him, but he was my best friend.

[Noah930]

Great video of Fangio. Can't believe it took until page 4 until someone mentioned him seriously. 5 championships, 4 in a row for four different manufacturers. Won 24 out of 51 races he started. Certainly it was a different era. And I don't profess to know who was the absolute greatest of all time. But Fangio deserves to be mentioned before page 4 of mental masturbation exercise like this.

[sand_man]

Originally posted by jluetjen
I just stumbled across this on You Tube. Wow!!!

I stumbled on to this video some time ago! Seeing Fangio sitting there right before the "race" literally brought tears to my eyes! SPEECHLESS!

[tchanson]

Originally posted by jluetjen

Fangio: Could sit in almost anything and be faster then the other guys. Great mechanical sympathy, so he would finish races when others wouldn't in an age of unreliable and unsafe cars. Really the first "Professional" as opposed to be a fast "gentlemen" racer.

The glaring omission, here, IMO, is that Fangio made his first Grand Prix start in his late thirties, an age older than Schumacher will be at retirement from the sport.

I don't think that JMF's start/win percentage will ever be bettered.


Tim

[dagriff]

By the way,
In the Turner print I posted of Collins & Hawthorn,
That's Fangio coming up behind them.
Hawthorn is gesturing to Collins with his thumb "Where the H did he come from?!