ETHANOL is stupid.

[dd74]

What's the octane level of ethanol?

[legion]

Originally posted by kaisen
It is renewable, and petroleum is not. It isn't too stupid for that reason alone.

Here in the midwest E85 is up to 50 cents per gallon less than 87 octane, so even a reduction in fuel economy still nets a savings.

When gas was $3.15, E85 was $0.50 cheaper. That's 84% of the price for 73% of the gas-mileage--so that's still a loser.

Now, gas is $2.35 a gallon and E85 is $2.30 a gallon. That's 98% of the price for 73% of the gas-mileage--an even bigger loser.

ADM is headquartered exactly 40 miles south of me. Nearly every station in town sells E85. This is probably the densest market for E85 in the country.

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally posted by NICKG
what i don't get is, why aren't we going towards biodiesels? we have the surplus agricultural resources and diesel is simple more easily made (re: it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanal than it makes) Europeans have been using diesl small cars heavily for years and i read somewhere where like fully 60% of small cars sold in the EU were diesel. Biodiesel is a completely renewable resource..we would not need mid east oil anymore

Bio-diesel may seem like a good bet but it is really in its infancy. The engineering ecomonics are still a little off. Remember it still takes energy to make it and that energy can come from hydro plants but mostly from coal burners. Also, it takes methanol to make it as well as other chemicals. These have to be made as well which also require energy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm investing in a bio-diesel plant now but only becasue I know that the stock will go up (on shear emotion alone).

[kaisen]

Originally posted by NICKG
what i don't get is, why aren't we going towards biodiesels? we have the surplus agricultural resources and diesel is simple more easily made (re: it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanal than it makes) Europeans have been using diesl small cars heavily for years and i read somewhere where like fully 60% of small cars sold in the EU were diesel. Biodiesel is a completely renewable resource..we would not need mid east oil anymore

Great idea. I'm all for biodiesels.

[NICKG]

Originally posted by hardflex
Question: here in Texas we get up to 10% ethanal.

My older (86) Toyota failed emissions because of high Nox, a result of too high cumbustion temps. By running an ethanol mix, wouldn't it lower cumbustion temps and improve my chances of passing the test? And how about the aircooled 914's? Lower mileage, but cooler running? Just wondering.

My wifes Avalon get's about under 25 on the ethanol mix, but upwards of 27 on the straight gas.

i would not use that in those cars...your fuel lines won''t like you Ethanol like methanol is HIGHLY corrosive to rubber and is not backwards safe on older cars

[kaisen]

Originally posted by dd74
What's the octane level of ethanol?

Pure Ethanol is 113 octane

[NICKG]

Originally posted by kaisen
Great idea. I'm all for biodiesels.

Most all of the issues people will bring up are totally false, Bio is definetly the way to go in the future, be it with soy or vegetable oils. The real truth is that when Rudolf diesel invented the diesel engine, he ran it with peanut oil. Later on the oil companies names the excess leftovers from the refining process Diesel to market it to the buyers of Diesel engine vehicles...that stuck...most people would be very suprised to read that. What is really shows off is the grip the oil comglomerates have over the everday people...when you hear it repetitivly over and over it becomes truth, even when it isn't

[kaisen]

Kerosene = fuel oil = diesel #1/#2

[Nathans_Dad]

From what I understand, the people against ethanol argue that if you include the energy costs involved in growing and harvesting the corn into the equation along with the energy needed to actually produce the ethanol, then it takes more fossil fuel to produce the ethanol than you get out.

Another interesting point which was made on NPR this morning is that the corn which would go towards ethanol production is currently sold cheaply as animal feed. Therefore, if we start making more ethanol the price of things like pork and beef will increase.

I'm all for alternative fuels, but I think we should look at these things critically and really choose the best one.

[M.D. Holloway]

10 years ago my Father-in-law sold all of his grain for feed, 5 years ago 25% for ethanol, today it is almost 90% for ethanol. I'm not sure that he is getting better money for it but that is where it is going.

[kaisen]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
From what I understand, the people against ethanol argue that if you include the energy costs involved in growing and harvesting the corn into the equation along with the energy needed to actually produce the ethanol, then it takes more fossil fuel to produce the ethanol than you get out.

Another interesting point which was made on NPR this morning is that the corn which would go towards ethanol production is currently sold cheaply as animal feed. Therefore, if we start making more ethanol the price of things like pork and beef will increase.

Well at first, yes. The trucks that transport the corn, the driers that take moisture out of the corn, etc are NOW using fossil fuels, but that can change. If those trucks and driers used ethanols then the 'dependency' on fossil fuels for production go way down.

Economics drive lots of decisions. But it is a short term glitch. When crop prices rise, farmers switch their production to more profitable crops. We can grow corn. Just because we are growing ginseng there now doesn't mean it can't/won't be corn next year. These are short term economic hurdles.

[dd74]

So if pure Ethanol is 113, then a mix of ethanol/gasoline might still yield a higher octane fuel than super unleaded. If so, then:

1) Does it burn slower because it is denser? I might be wrong, but isn't higher-octane fuel denser than lower octane fuel?

2) Can older engines - like engines with Webers - burn ethanol? Or is that ill-advised?

[legion]

Originally posted by LubeMaster77
10 years ago my Father-in-law sold all of his grain for feed, 5 years ago 25% for ethanol, today it is almost 90% for ethanol. I'm not sure that he is getting better money for it but that is where it is going.

Nope, ADM has done all that it can to ensure the farmer does not see a dime more.

[hytem]

I haven't noticed any mileage effect. Averaging around 20 mpg in mixed driving. I could do better if I cut back on my rpms around town, but you have to let these cars breathe a little if they are just weekend drivers.

I agree about the ethanol--sounds like a typical American solution nowadays to an energy problem, I'm sorry to say. An electric car,especially for city driving, makes far more sense. Anybody notice how corn-on-the-cob has doubled in price this year? At least where I live.

[Craig 930 RS]

From a midwesterner - above:

Ethanol (ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol EtOH) is a clear, colorless liquid made from starch crops, such as corn. E85 is a fuel mixture of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline.

E85 is a renewable fuel that reduces air pollution and America's dependence on foreign oil.

Ethanol has no sulfur, which further supports its status as a clean-fuel option.

In the United States each year, more than 1.5 billion gallons of ethanol are added to gasoline to increase octane and improve emissions quality.

Ethanol production is extremely energy-efficient, with a positive energy balance of 125 percent, compared to 85 percent for gasoline. It's the most efficient method of producing liquid transportation fuels.

Ethanol is low in ozone reactivity, making it an effective tool in reducing ozone pollution.

Ethanol dilutes other potentially harmful components in gasoline such as benzene, toluene and xylene.

Still stupid?
-------
Yep. Energy used to produce ethanol is excessive.
Corrodes fuel system parts. Horrid gas mileage!

[NICKG]

and biodiesel looks better everyday....that is a complete renewable fuel that betters the petroleum standard. It is very easy to refine and would work with only little effort on most all diesels...if they were to use on a large scale, it would not be any different than oil.

[dd74]

Originally posted by Craig911

Ethanol...Energy used to produce ethanol is excessive.
Corrodes fuel system parts. Horrid gas mileage!

If true, that seals it for me.

[svandamme]

Originally posted by kaisen
It is renewable, and petroleum is not. It isn't too stupid for that reason alone.

i think the jury is still out on Ethanol beeing "renewable"
i don't think you can keep growing Sugar on the same land indefinately... at some point your land will stop producing the big crops.. and fertilizing basically means you're putting energy in the ground that wasn't there.. which means it's not renewable , but it comes from somewhere else...

[kaisen]

Energy used to produce ethanol is excessive. Corrodes fuel system parts. Horrid gas mileage!

It is still a lesser evil than petroleum and all of the political messes (and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) it has cost the US in the last 30 years.

Energy 'losses' in production are a function of our *currnet* dependency on foreign oil. See my above post. The efficiencies will change. Net energy is one measurement, but when the energy used is also renewable there are LONG TERM gains beyond short-term economics.

Sure ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline, which is more corrosive than diesel, which is more corrosive than most biodiesels. So what? It only matters to existing engines that were meant for gasoline. It's as simple as switching materials used in tanks, lines, seals, and injectors. Already done. Many millions of vehicles are already E85 compatible.

Ethanol does not form deposits in your engine or injectors like gasoline can, which is one reason it is added to regular gasoline. It is also added to boost the octane number (i.e. 89 octane).

The current loss of fuel economy is based on vehicles that can run EITHER gasoline OR E85. They are optimized for gasoline. If they were optimized for ethanol, we could recapture quite a bit of that efficiency.

Examples: catalytic converters could be less restrictive due to ethanol burning cleaner. Spark advance and compression ratios could be higher due to higher octane ratings. Direct-injection technologies work very well with ethanols and reduce some of the corrosion concerns.

Again, the largest single reason for ethanol development is to reduce our dependence on petroleum and foster utilizing renewable resources.

[MotoSook]

Developing A Sustainable Ethanol Industry
If we identify other major problems with com ethanol perhaps it may give us some clues to what we really need in developing an ethanol industry that has potential to significantly reduce gasoline requirements. First of all, the energy yield of corn is too low if H is to put a dent in the sea of oil coming into North America. A crop with much higher biomass yield and wider adaptability is required. It must be more energy efficient to grow than corn as well. The annual tillage, planting, spraying, fertilizing and drying of corn gives H a poor energy balance. Corn is also environmentally leaky, nitrogen fertilizer and pesticides get into ground water and soil erodes.

Something that protects the environment and requires lower inputs is required. As well, the corn byproduct market would be swamped if corn ethanol was produced in North America in a major way to compete with gasoline. A ready market is required for additional byproducts generated during the production of ethanol.

One of the biggest problems with the C02 balance of corn ethanol in the U.S. is the great quantity of CO2 liberated by using coal as an energy source in the milling and conversion of corn into ethanol. The energy required in the milling process needs to be reduced, but perhaps more importantly a cleaner electricity source than coal needs to be developed to reduce CO2 emissions.

The final problem with corn ethanol, as previously mentioned, is that annual grain crops are hard on the soil and release C02 from the loss of soil organic matter. It would be highly desirable if the crop could increase soil organic matter.

http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm