Habeas Corpus

[Moneyguy1]

Ronin

I am amazed at the lack of understanding of what is going on. I am astounded that any American citizen would not be alarmed at the slow erosion of their liberties and even worse, defending the process by which these liberties are being eroded.

I am also a bit taken aback to think there are those who defend this process, like a lamb willingly being led to the axeman.

Whether it be through the inaction of Congress, whether it be the misleading statements from the administration that foment fear and mistrust, whether it be the spineless nature of many of the "loyal opposition" to point out inconsistencies, we are in deep doo-doo here in this country led by people putting pride and position ahead of duty and responsibility.

I offer a challenge: After an analysis of the predictions of the Iraq debacle, offering totally different outlooks three years ago vs. what is being said today even by the VP, How can ANYONE really believe ANYTHING that originates in Washington DC? If not outright lies, we have been misled and permitted it to happen, not holding our elected officials to task. The challenge is this: Placing rhetoric to one side ("Stay the Course", "Cut and Run", "The insurgents are on the run", "We must fight them over there or we will be fighting them over here"), and the porous nature of our borders(among other pressing issues), will someone please tell me what, after Afghanistan (which most people were behind) has this administration and congress done RIGHT?

[on-ramp]

Americans are too dumb to understand laws, nevermind reading them....what they mean, and how they are effected by them. nobody cares until it's reported on CNN or FOX.


laws are written by lawyers, at a higher level, they speak a different language that the avg person cannot understand.
it's all bs.

[jorian]

Moneyguy is right on the Money so to speak.

"I am also a bit taken aback to think there are those who defend this process, like a lamb willingly being led to the axeman."

Kinda like the Stockholm Syndrome.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by RoninLB
The courts have been stripped of habeas corpus jurisdiction over enemy combatants.

An "enemy combatant" is whatever the president says it is according to the new torture authorization law.

[Rodeo]

Originally posted by fastpat
An "enemy combatant" is whatever the president says it is according to the new torture authorization law.

Pat's correct.

I don't see how "the conservatives" support giving the executive this extraordinary power over our lives.

But today's conservatives don't seem to mind unlimited and unprecedented federal power over the people.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rodeo
Pat's correct.

I don't see how "the conservatives" support giving the executive this extraordinary power over our lives.

But today's conservatives don't seem to mind unlimited and unprecedented federal power over the people.

The Republicans today, and the first Republicans of Lincoln's day were not conservatives in any measurable way.

They wanted a unitary presidency who could define words to mean anything. They wanted a Supreme Court that would decide that it was the sole arbiter of the meaning of the Constitution so that the US government could use that as a method of granting itself huge chunks of power not actually granted by the words of the Constitution nor in the writings of those who wrote and approved the document. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus and arrested and detained over 30,000 vocal opponents of his policies, many were tortured, and many others died of neglect and disease at the infamous Fort Lafayette in New York. It was a gulag for civilians. See Lincoln's Wrath: Fierce Mobs, Brilliant Scoundrels and a President's Mission to Destroy the Press by Jeffrey Manber, Neil Dahlstrom. Neocon authors today use Lincoln's mass arrests and imprisonments as justification for the same actions today, including arresting anti-war congressmen, which Lincoln did.

The Whig/Republicans wanted high tariffs, corporate welfare, a huge military, and endless government works and programs. They have exactly the same programs today.

We all live with their legacy everyday, and for what appears to be well into the future.

It looks pretty dismal.

[fastpat]

It's already starting. http://tinyurl.com/y3n6dz

[john70t]

Even Afghanistan is only at a level of containment, if the suspiciously-few newscasts are to be believed.
Poppy production is booming, and the Taliban have regrouped somewhat.

[Moneyguy1]

But other than that, things are going amazingly well......

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
But other than that, things are going amazingly well......

I think it was some emperor or king, some centuries ago, who said, "another victory like that and we're ruined".

Stay the course.

[Rodeo]

Habeas corpus came from the Magna Carta, over 800 years ago. It it has survived all that time because it is one of the primary foundations of a moral and just society.

This Republican Congress and Republican president abolished it after a few hours debate, and just in time for the mid-term elections.

Karl Rove turned the 800 year old Habeas Corpus into a political football, and the Republicans, in a despreate attempt to show the Dems were "weak," used it shamelessly.

Shame on them.

[jorian]

Patriotism and civil rights have become incompatible.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by fastpat
It's already starting. http://tinyurl.com/y3n6dz

Yikes, it's retro-active to old cases already being heard?

The bastards.

[RoninLB]

A Lady libertarian wrote a lot of letters to the White House complaining about the treatment of a captive insurgent (terrorist) being held in Guantanamo Bay. She received back the following reply:

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, D.C. 20016

Dear Concerned Citizen,

Thank you for your recent letter roundly criticizing our treatment of
the Taliban and Al Quaeda detainees currently being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Our administration takes these matters seriously and your opinion was heard loud and clear here in Washington. You'll be pleased to learn that, thanks to the concerns of citizens like yourself, we are creating a new division of the Terrorist Retraining Program, to be called the "Liberals Accept Responsibility for Killers" program, or LARK for short.


In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided to place one terrorist under your personal care. Your personal detainee has been selected and scheduled for transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence next Monday.

Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) is to be cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your letter of complaint. It will likely be necessary for you to hire some assistant caretakers.

We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your standards of care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you so strongly recommended in your letter.

Although Ahmed is a sociopath and extremely violent, we hope that your sensitivity to what you described as his "attitudinal problem" will help him overcome these character flaws. Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere cultural differences. We understand that you plan to offer counseling and home schooling.

Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or nail clippers. We advise that you do not ask him to demonstrate these skills at your next yoga group. He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive devices from common household products, so you may wish to keep those items locked up, unless (in your opinion) this might offend him.

Ahmed will not wish to interact with you or your daughters (except sexually), since he views females as a subhuman form of property. This is a particularly sensitive subject for him and he has been known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to comply with the new dress code that he will recommend as more appropriate attire. I'm sure you will come to enjoy the anonymity offered by the burka -- over time.

Just remember that it is all part of "respecting his culture and his
religious beliefs" -- wasn't that how you put it?

Thanks again for your letter. We truly appreciate it when folks like
you keep us informed of the proper way to do our job. You take good care of Ahmed - and remember..we'll be watching.

Good luck!

Cordially, your friend,
Don Rumsfeld

[Rodeo]

For people like you, I suppose the choice really is between abolishing habeas corpus and dying in a terrorist attack.

For Americans that can sing more than two notes, it's quite clear that the options are much more numerous than that.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by RoninLB
A Lady libertarian wrote a lot of letters to the White House complaining about the treatment of a captive insurgent (terrorist) being held in Guantanamo Bay. She received back the following reply:

*garbage snipped due to the smell*

Cordially, your friend,
Don Rumsfeld

The prisoners held in G'itmo are there in violation of US law and international law, still.

That's all that matters.

[jorian]

I guess if the Lady Lib takes in the terrorist she won't be obliged to pay any more taxes, or vote, or drive on the right side of the road.....