Holy Cholesterol

[Dennis Kalma]

Peter. sorry, but us old farts also have the brains and experience to discern.

In my case, I got so frozen up that I could barely walk....cholesterol was good though.....got off statins for 6 weeks....problem went away.

Back on to statins at a later date.....guess what, joint pain is back, muscle pain is back....off statins....

You guessed it, pain subsided greatly.

Ezetrol is the latest drug of choice, surprise surprise...guess who has joint and muscle pain? No prizes for guessing right. And Ezetrol is not even a statin. Oh, and by the way, guess who's blood pressure is up above normal now after being below F$&%ing normal for most of my life.

I think these drugs and problems are poorly understood by the medical unprofessionals and they get foisted on us as being the solution to all of our health problems. Now if they sold them for cost, I might believe them, but as you know they are hellishly expensive little pills.

I think that good health practice (watch your diet, weight, exercise, all that) is a good thing, by all means do so. BUT, keep in mind that cholesterol is only one risk factor amongst many.....and the jury of attributability is still out....

Dennis

[K.B.]

20+ years ago I had a Dr tell me to exercise more and cut down on the red meats to lower my high colesterol and high BP. I told him I was a vegan, I hadn't had red meat in 10 years. I also did triathlons at the time, exercise was a way of life.

5 years ago I let my then current Dr put me on Lipitor. He said at my age I should be at higher risk yada yada.......... After a few years he increased the dosage. It took me a while to figure out why I was not exercising much anymore, joint pain. After much research on the Internet I found it was the Lipitor, the higher dosage caused more problems. I switched Drs.

New Doc has me on Vytorin. I'm exercising more now and feeling better. New Doc wants me to start taking Clopidogrel and Lisinopril to thin my blood, at my age yada yada............. I am not sure I want to start some more drugs just because of my age. If my arteries are clogged I can see taking the stuff. He wanted me to do the baby aspirin thing. I used to get headaches from aspirin, so he prescribed the other stuff. Am I too skeptical about the blood thinners? What are the new side effects of these things?

[artplumber]

Dennis,
I'm no spring chicken and have been known to use the various ones out there.

More importantly, I prescribe them all the time and have heard pretty much all the stories. While chol is only one of many risk factors, it is an important one that previously was ignored (or debated as you seek to do). Therapy for it and lowering goals have routinely found more and more benefit to treating that single factor. We still aren't really sure where the "floor" is to get down to.

And I'm as "unprofessional" as they come. It continues to amaze me that people will get an electrician to wire their house, but insist that they know more than the profs when it comes to medical care. YMMV

[Dennis Kalma]

Peter, thanks for the clarification, I suspect that we will probably agree on a bunch of stuff and disagree on a bunch of other stuff.

One point I would like to make though, is that while I truly respect the medical profession and listen very carefully to my doctor, I realize that they too are human, they have many patients to take care of, are bombarded with information and sometimes cannot take the time and effort to deal with the specialty or less run of the mill cases. So when it directly affects my life, and there is available research that I can check out, I think that I am just being prudent to challenge the MD and make him defend his position.

It is just like when the electrician that wired my house on the last renovation tried to do some stuff that was borderline (within code, but not within the planned use for the area), I felt very free to update his understanding and work with him to change it, with a much better result.

Most MD's I have met are pretty narrow minded, and whilst there are many good ones, the majority come across as actually believing they are smarter than all their patients and have nothing to learn from them.

Take the example of a friend of mine with a brain tumour. She was diagnosed, told that surgery was required and it would paralyze her right side.....she didn't like that much. Off she went, did a bunch of research and found a hormonal treatment in Sweden that was successful with her disease and brought it to the attention of the doctors. One would have thought they would be extremely interested and relieved there was a treatment with a better result...but no, they went out of their way, as a group...not just one doctor...to block every attempt for her to pursue this treatement. She fought them hammer and tongs, ended up paying for everything out of her own pocket (no payment from the Canadian health care system as she was, in their opinion, suicidal). She could not even get a blood test done in advance of travelling to Europe so that they could ensure they had all the proper stuff ready for her to minimize her stay and thus expense.

She went and got the treatment, tumour is GONE, but it only has been about 18 years, so maybe it isn't really gone after all?

Anyway, only one case, can't use it to prove the rule, there are a number of others in my direct experience, but doctors are not superhuman and cannot know everything....they are mere humans like the rest of us.

Oh yeah, I am meeting my MD tomorrow to discuss the effects of Ezetrol, forgot to mention that it makes me so dizzy at times that I have to sit down...noted side effect....so again, what is the greater impact to life?

I will definitely listen to him, try all the alternatives I can physically deal with, but there will be limits to what I can and will do....after all it is MY body.

Dennis

[Moneyguy1]

Sometimes I wonder if people were happier when they just lived their life, did what they liked and keeled over, never knowing what their cholesterol level or blood pressure was. In other words, is it better to live a longer life in constant fear or is a shorter worry-free life the preferable alternative?

[on-ramp]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Sometimes I wonder if people were happier when they just lived their life, did what they liked and keeled over, never knowing what their cholesterol level or blood pressure was. In other words, is it better to live a longer life in constant fear or is a shorter worry-free life the preferable alternative?

very well put. I was about to post something similar.

worry leads to stress , and we know what stress can do.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by Dennis Kalma
....So when it directly affects my life, and there is available research that I can check out, I think that I am just being prudent to challenge the MD and make him defend his position....

Most MD's I have met are pretty narrow minded, and whilst there are many good ones, the majority come across as actually believing they are smarter than all their patients and have nothing to learn from them.

Happens every day by everyone who is an armchair internet MD. Have you considered having your client/customers all challenge you with the same "issues" with your work? Let's see, that's 10-20 people every half day in the office. Plus the 10 in the hospital. You'd be pretty tired of hearing it too.

....It is just like when the electrician that wired my house on the last renovation tried to do some stuff that was borderline (within code, but not within the planned use for the area), I felt very free to update his understanding and work with him to change it, with a much better result.

Nobody knows as much as Dennis about anything?

....
Take the example of a friend of mine with a brain tumour. She was diagnosed, ....

And I'll regale you with stories of people going to various clinics in this country and throughout the world seeking a "different option", only to return with worse (or now untreatable) disease.

Or, repeated heart attacks, strokes, heart failure, lost limbs.....

....I will definitely listen to him, ...limits to what I can and will do....after all it is MY body.

How'd I know that phrase would come up? Never heard that before either.

[Dennis Kalma]

"Happens every day by everyone who is an armchair internet MD. Have you considered having your client/customers all challenge you with the same "issues" with your work? Let's see, that's 10-20 people every half day in the office. Plus the 10 in the hospital. You'd be pretty tired of hearing it too."

Actually it does happen to me. I am a VP of IT (5th time in the chair, I am a "fixer"). I typically schedule my meetings on 15 minute intervals, my life is full of technical/business guys who believe they know how to do IT better than anyone else and guess what my reaction is....I listen to them. If there is a better idea out there, I sure the heck want to be paying attention to it...why wouldn't I? Let me admire the idea for a while, try it on, see if it will work and if so, let's do it your way...but let's at least both be open minded about it to challenge and accept challenge of any idea put before us.

Peter, as for your personal comment, try and be adult OK? .....if I have offended you personally, I apologize, my comments were not intended to cause offense, just trying to make a point and was not trying to make it at your expense.

Dennis

[K.B.]

OK... remember when the medical profession thought blood letting and leeches were the solution? That was the common belief. We can now laugh at that and all know it was rediculous. How about in 100 years? Will the common consensus laugh at what we now believe is proper medical treatment?

We're not as smart as we pretend to be. Remember Thalidomide? How about silicone implants?

Taking any drug is a gamble, taking no drugs at all is a gamble too. Take yer choice!

[Flatbutt1]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Sometimes I wonder if people were happier when they just lived their life, did what they liked and keeled over, never knowing what their cholesterol level or blood pressure was. In other words, is it better to live a longer life in constant fear or is a shorter worry-free life the preferable alternative?

Who was it that said "live fast, die young and leave a good looking corpse"?

[JavaBrewer]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Sometimes I wonder if people were happier when they just lived their life, did what they liked and keeled over, never knowing what their cholesterol level or blood pressure was. In other words, is it better to live a longer life in constant fear or is a shorter worry-free life the preferable alternative?

Along similar lines we don't have a weight scale in the house. I also don't wear a watch anymore - admittedly my cell phone has time if I need it, but I will NOT conduct my day constantly aware of the time. I go by how I feel and lately I've felt like crap. Since I've gone off Liptor the difference is night and day - good that I can get off the couch w/o groaning like a 80 year old man, bad that my cholesterol shot back up. I'm second guessing my Doc with the Niaspan right now but I'll give it a go for another 6 months before I make a change there.

In college I ran cross country. I recall a year when we did the mandatory physical exam that the Doc asked if I was taking anything for my BP... This however is the first time that I'm hearing my BP is high, my cholesterol is high, and I happen to be fat and feel like crap. It's up to me this time...

[Moneyguy1]

Yeah...I am finally the proud owner of one prescription medication. Didn't know I needed it, but what the heck.

My life philosophy is simple, but to some perhaps a bit strange....

I will do nothing willingly to shorten my span here on earth, so suicide is out. At the same time, I will not allow "heroic" means employed to lengthen my life. Death is preferable to a vegetative or quadrapelegic state, at least in my universe.

[artplumber]

Dennis,
You deserve a complete reply, just can't do it right now. However, I would reassure you I'm not offended, at most frustrated, by hearing here what I hear all day long from guys that I think would be more prone to reason than the usual folks in the office.

[Rick Lee]

Just had a physical last week and got my blood work results in the mail on Sat.

BP was 124/80

Total cholesterol - 233
Triglyceride level - 263
HDL - 40
LDL - 140

EKG and chest x-ray were fine.

I'm 35, 6'1", weigh 240, a light smoker, eat very fresh fish about 4-5 times a week, hit the gym about five times a week and get a cold or the flu about once every five years, never had stitches or any real medical problems. Doc. saw my helmet and riding jacket and said that was my biggest health risk for now. Still, I'm cutting way back on sweet intake and will probably go back to oatmeal breakfasts since it's getting cold now.

[Nathans_Dad]

I just wanted to chime in and say I am behind Art in this discussion. I think that educated patients are great, but overbearing patients who think that 15 minutes on the internet = 4 years of med school plus 3-5 years of residency just make my day go south.

[Moneyguy1]

Rick

We agree. As a patient, I respect the resources that the physician brings to the table. However, I also reserve the right to question something I do not understand. I do not take the ads on TV for this, that, and others seriously, nor do I run to the Doctor for every little pain, quirk, zit or bruise. I had, back east, a great doc. He took good care of me and did not believe in annual physicals. When I did come in, he would do all the "normal" tests. His philosophy was "Your body will tell you when you need me." Out here, with some physical discomfort in my left side, I found a doc with somewhat similar leanings. He had bolld/urine tests, an EKG, chest x-ray, and sonograms(?) of my arteries which were as clear as those of a 30 year old. He put me on one medication and said: Call me when you need me."

Medical Science is indeed a great boon to mankind, but the knowledge is incomplete. Much is still guesswork; properly described as an "Undiscovered Country". Too many people think that all problems can be resolved with a pill, unwilling to admit there is a limit to everything including life itself.

[Nathans_Dad]

Of course you have the right to question something. Any good physician would EXPECT you to do so if you didn't understand or felt uncomfortable with the plan.

There is a big difference between healthy questioning and trying to dictate your healthcare off of what you read on Ishouldabeenadoc.com. The big difference is that you don't sue your auto mechanic if you decide to work on your car in the garage and break it.

[schamp]

One of my Docs put me on Crestor because my C was 219, legs started hurting, etc. I did some research and stopped taking the Crestor. Other Doc put me on Vitorin and have not had the problem with the legs. I also believe that if you are taking a statin you should also take Co Q 10. I have had several of my Doctors not only recommend it but said that they took it daily. I am 54 wiegh about 200, and I used to smoke. I also think you should take your statins at night or before you go to bed. Good luck.

[Dennis Kalma]

In the interests of clearing the air a bit.....just came back from the doctor. Had a great 20 minute discussion about cholesterol, blood pressure, family history etc etc. Very open, young guy (37) who is up on the research (could quote chapter and verse), agreed that the cholesterol thing is overblown but is a risk factor....and "BTW Dennis, I am delighted that patients do their homework as it makes my job easier"....to quote, and certainly his point of view was that a good patient is an informed and questioning patient.

Anyway, upshot for me is to try cutting the Ezetrol pill in half (to 5mg/day) see what effect that is, try a very small dose of blood pressure pills (again half) to keep that under control and maintain the weight, exercise, diet control.

So for those who believe doctors are creatures of legendary stature, the MD agreed with a good deal of the thread that is here....one risk factor, important, but not a big deal if there are complications. There are risks if you take the pill....there are risks that you take if do not take the pill.

Now of course, he agreed with me only because I yelled and screamed at him, mentioned the names of several lawyers who were willing to take the case if he didn't do and agree with what I said, plus his responses were hard to hear with his throat in my fingers...but I am just that kind of guy.

...let the predictable responses begin....

Dennis

[on-ramp]

Originally posted by schamp
One of my Docs put me on Crestor because my C was 219, legs started hurting, etc. I did some research and stopped taking the Crestor. Other Doc put me on Vitorin and have not had the problem with the legs. I also believe that if you are taking a statin you should also take Co Q 10. I have had several of my Doctors not only recommend it but said that they took it daily. I am 54 wiegh about 200, and I used to smoke. I also think you should take your statins at night or before you go to bed. Good luck.

219 is not so high to prompt taking medicine. get a new doctor...chol. is only 1 risk factor, if you are healthy otherwise, and only have a reading of 219, then you're fine, nothing to worry about.