CNN Combat Hospital.

[fintstone]

Parlant en français ne laisse pas un goût de pénis dans votre bouche ?

[fastpat]

Originally posted by fintstone
It figures.

I disagree. Going to war for a honorable cause is indeed noble. No the French have not been right on any issue that comes to mind. Yes, France is the home of surrender. No, we did not surrender in Vietnam. We soundly defeated the North Vietnamese and withdrew after the Paris Peace accords. The problem was that our (at the time) lily-livered congress chose not to live up to our obligation to help the South Vietnamese as we promised. This failure, purely for political gain, resulted in millions of deaths that we could have prevented. The war was not ignoble, but our failure to support our ally in '74 was indeed shameful and a dark day in the history of our nation. If we fall to similar democratic politics with our situation in Iraq...we will follow the same path. Millions will die and our military will be destroyed....again. The reason that we have reached the current situation is because we failed to act strongly enough in the past and are largely viewed as a paper tiger....due to the trepidation of some of our elected leaders and the partisan political aspirations of others.

The US government surrendered in Vietnam, Korea, and will inevitably surrender in Iraq.

You may continue to lie to yourself all you wish.

[HardDrive]

Originally posted by fintstone
War is quite noble when it is the last alternative to something much worse. You should be proud that braver men are willing to risk their lives for something bigger than themselves. Once fighting back (war) is considered "too difficult"...evil will have free reign.

Its a rare day when I agree with fintstone, but this is certainly true.

[HardDrive]

Strange, I have read this entire post, and I don't quite see why you guys are attacking fintstone. I disagree with him 99% of the time, but not in this case.

Making war against Hilter was not noble? It was just a dirty job that had to be done? I disagree. There is evil in the world, and sitting by and doing nothing about it....well ones inaction is just as evil.

Today its seems, we are quite divided about where the evil exists in the world. Its a conflicted time. But lets not let that cloud history. There are forces of darkness that must be fought on occasion.

[Joeaksa]

Fint,

Its not worth arguing with our member from Belgium. Anything we say he is against. If I say the sun raises in the East he would find an argument against it.

As for fighting, just look at their record in WW2. They do not know how to fight for something worth saving.

Save your time (and keystrokes) for a discussion with someone who is at least a bit rational. You can never explain to someone who has not been in combat what its like, never.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by HardDrive
Strange, I have read this entire post, and I don't quite see why you guys are attacking fintstone. I disagree with him 99% of the time, but not in this case.

Making war against Hilter was not noble? It was just a dirty job that had to be done? I disagree. There is evil in the world, and sitting by and doing nothing about it....well ones inaction is just as evil.

Today its seems, we are quite divided about where the evil exists in the world. Its a conflicted time. But lets not let that cloud history. There are forces of darkness that must be fought on occasion.

There was no need for America to be involved in World War Two in europe. The Germans and the Russians would have exhausted themselves on the eastern front, the British would have run the Germans back into Germany, and the Germans would have liquidated the National Socialists.

The invasion and conquest of Germany was totally unnecessary; in fact it was counter-productive in that it left huge parts of europe at the mercy of the Soviet Union which otherwise would have remained free.

[holtjv]

Originally posted by fastpat
There was no need for America to be involved in World War Two in europe. The Germans and the Russians would have exhausted themselves on the eastern front, the British would have run the Germans back into Germany, and the Germans would have liquidated the National Socialists.

The invasion and conquest of Germany was totally unnecessary; in fact it was counter-productive in that it left huge parts of europe at the mercy of the Soviet Union which otherwise would have remained free.

Hmmm. So, Pat, if you were to put a label on your political alignment, it would be constitutionalist?

[azasadny]

I was a USN Corpsman attached to the 1st Marine Div in Desert Storm and I was a surgical tech, working in the surgical/recovery room areas. Nothing "noble" about bloodshed except for the individual's actions and deeds. War is a terrible way to see how brave people suffer and die...

[holtjv]

Originally posted by HardDrive
Strange, I have read this entire post, and I don't quite see why you guys are attacking fintstone. I disagree with him 99% of the time, but not in this case.

Making war against Hilter was not noble? It was just a dirty job that had to be done? I disagree. There is evil in the world, and sitting by and doing nothing about it....well ones inaction is just as evil.

Today its seems, we are quite divided about where the evil exists in the world. Its a conflicted time. But lets not let that cloud history. There are forces of darkness that must be fought on occasion.

I totally buy into everything you said. My perceived disagreement is that the troops accept the nobility of the cause as they're fighting and dying, which is patently absurd.

Jack

[nostatic]

individual actions can be noble. overarching concepts promulgated by governments are not.

imho

[fastpat]

Originally posted by holtjv
Hmmm. So, Pat, if you were to put a label on your political alignment, it would be constitutionalist?

From demanding a law abiding government, perhaps that could be said.

More specifically, politically, I'm libertarian; economically I'm anarcho-capitalist.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by holtjv
I totally buy into everything you said. My perceived disagreement is that the troops accept the nobility of the cause as they're fighting and dying, which is patently absurd.

Jack

That's the second most successful propaganda story by the US government; number one in my opinion remains the idea that every American is completely in debt to the federal government for the quality of life they lead.

That's patently absurd as well.

[svandamme]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Fint,

Its not worth arguing with our member from Belgium. Anything we say he is against. If I say the sun raises in the East he would find an argument against it.

As for fighting, just look at their record in WW2. They do not know how to fight for something worth saving.

Save your time (and keystrokes) for a discussion with someone who is at least a bit rational. You can never explain to someone who has not been in combat what its like, never.

sure Joe... and you've been in many wars i presume? so you know how noble it is then??

the concept of war , beeing so noble, i wonder why nations don't strive to be at war continuously... oh wait... never mind...

listen to azasadny... he's saying exactly what i mean to say
and he was there, he has seen it up close, like Fint, i'll ask you the same question...which war did you go to, and why was it so noble to you??? so far we have 2 folks on this thread saying they did see war, and both say it's not at all noble...or were you "in the rear , with the gear" as they say?? flying zoomies from up high??? guess it's a bit more clean from 30 000 feet high isn't it? push a button , drop a bomb,something goes BOOOMM?? was that the noble war you fought Joe???

Originally posted by azasadny
I was a USN Corpsman attached to the 1st Marine Div in Desert Storm and I was a surgical tech, working in the surgical/recovery room areas. Nothing "noble" about bloodshed except for the individual's actions and deeds. War is a terrible way to see how brave people suffer and die...

+1

[fintstone]

Originally posted by svandamme
...
the concept of war , beeing so noble, i wonder why nations don't strive to be at war continuously... oh wait... never mind...

War in of itself is not noble...and no one has suggested it is... Making the sacrifice required to serve one's country and go to war to defend your country is certainly noble.
The case you make here...is as always, that people join and stay in the military strictly for economic reasons or because they are sadistic bastards...I subscribe to neither theory...and am surprised that you have managed to get folks that have served to agree with you. Perhaps that is why their service was short...or perhaps you misrepresent their position. I, like many others (hence celebration of Memorial Day, etc) consider the service of the American military to be quite noble and worth honoring and emulating. Of course, I certainly would never expect you to understand.

[svandamme]

Originally posted by fintstone
War in of itself is not noble...and no one has suggested it is...

but you did suggest exactly that
allow me to refresh your memory:

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
But according to some, war is noble.

Go figure.

Originally posted by fintstone
War is quite noble when it is the last alternative to something much worse.

you said it , not me
i say War is not noble, it's the failure of society and is an example of mankind at it's worst...that's the concept of war, no fun no glory, not noble

the actions of men and women during a war may be noble,but war itself is never noble...

if you cannot distuinguish between these 2 statements... then again , that's not my english , that's yours ...i've used 2 different colors this time, perhaps that will clear things up

[fintstone]

Originally posted by svandamme
but you did suggest exactly that
allow me to refresh your memory:
...you said it , not me
...

Before you hurt your arm patting yourself on the back...Good try, but as always, your point is poorly taken.
Please note that where you quote me:
"War in of itself is not noble...and no one has suggested it is... "
and then:
"War is quite noble when it is the last alternative to something much worse."
I do not contradict myself as you seem to indicate...as war as "the last alternative to something much worse" is certainly not "war in of itself."

[fintstone]

Originally posted by svandamme
...i say War is not noble, it's the failure of society and is an example of mankind at it's worst...that's the concept of war, no fun no glory, not noble

the actions of men and women during a war may be noble,but war itself is never noble...

if you cannot distuinguish between these 2 statements... then again , that's not my english , that's yours ...i've used 2 different colors this time, perhaps that will clear things up

Looks like you are starting to come around. That is an improvement over your earlier:

Originally posted by svandamme
war is never noble... not even when it's to fight a war against evil…

It would appear that our fundamental difference is that the reason for war is inconsequential to you while it is of great significance to me. Thanks for sharing the lovely colors.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by fintstone


No, we did not surrender in Vietnam. We soundly defeated the North Vietnamese and withdrew after the Paris Peace accords.

wow. "soundly defeated the North Vietnamese." I don't know anyone that would say that...well, except you.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by nostatic
wow. "soundly defeated the North Vietnamese." I don't know anyone that would say that...well, except you.

It is without doubt by any statistic I am aware of...other than in the US press. We were defeated soundly in the propaganda dept...but they had lots of help....much like our current enemies.

[svandamme]

Originally posted by fintstone
Looks like you are starting to come around. That is an improvement over your earlier:

i never denied that actions of men during a war could not be noble at times... but that wasn't what we were talking about. you just got sidetracked...

Originally posted by fintstone
Thanks for sharing the lovely colors.

i bet you would have liked a rainbow even more right?