Climate change: is the science really settled?

[thrown_hammer]

So if the moon moves away, but the Earth swells, and the glacial ice melts, and Jim’s car is 50 feet underground….We’re screwed…right?

[Jim Richards]

Yes, Shawn, though it's only a Jetta. I have at least a 50 ft. margin of safety for my 911.

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by thrown_hammer
Here’s a little experiment for you. Fill a glass with ice. Next fill it with water. Measure the level of the water. Now sit and watch the ice melt. Wait until all the ice melts, every last bit of it. Now measure the water level again. Now compare the levels. Did the water level go up? Down? Stay the same?

Maybe I am simple but could someone explain how the world is going to flood when the ice caps melt based on this experiment?

Shawn, what you a proposing is a classic example of answering a question that wasn't asked. I suspect that you were being ironic and this was your intention.

1) Your example has nothing to do with the level of the oceans and glacial melting. Why? Because glaciers are over land. The Glaciers which are melting which are expected to cause the oceans to rise are over the land masses of Greenland, Europe and Asia, and potentially Antartica. This water in it's current state has no influence on the level of the ocean, but when they melt and flow into the ocean, they are expected to increase the sea level.

2) The discussion of cold ocean water and warm ocean water mixing on this thread is a gross simplification of the process. A slightly less simplified mental model looks like this...

Cold Water:
1) Cold waters from the polar regions becomes heavier and sinks.
2) As it sinks, it is it is displaced towards the equatorial regions by the water cooling behind it.
3) It is not a linear flow to the equatorial zone due to the disruptions caused by land masses and things like the corrialous (sp?) effect.
This process takes decades if not hundreds of years at best. Water which cools and sinks off the coast of Greenland may not surface again as warm water until it reaches the North Pacific -- by way of the Antarctic ocean!

Warmer surface water has it's own patterns.
1) In the equatorial zones, the water warms and starts a roundabout trip back to the polar regions.
2) Everyone's familiar with the Gulf Stream and how it warms the Northeast US and Western Europe.

So the influence that this has on, and how it is influenced by climate (as opposed to weather) is still being discovered.

Some "Global Warming" questions that I haven't seen tackled yet that I'd like to see scientists answer are...

A) Given the millions and millions of years that Earth has had a fairly habitable climate, what are the mechanism which preceeded the onset of ice ages after warm spells. why?
B) The earth has had cyclical climate patterns (warm/cold/warm/cold) over the long term without spiraling out of control. What are the mechanisms which caused warm periods to turn cold? For example an increase in reflectivity as a result of the increase or redistribution of ocean surfaces?
C) For some reason, there tend to be more volcanic eruptions during the Northern Hemisphere's winter then during other times of the year. This is thought (but not proven) to be the result of the weight winter snow-pack on the Earth's crust. So if Northern winters become milder, will there be fewer eruptions thus causing less CO2 to be released into the atmosphere.
D) As more moister is released in the air, will the earth gain more airable land or less. Will the additional vegitation growing as a result of the retreat of he ice-caps take more CO2 out of the atmosphere? How about plankton blooms in the oceans?

Those are the types of questions I'm not seeing addressed.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by jluetjen
Shawn, what you a proposing is a classic example of answering a question that wasn't asked. I suspect that you were being ironic and this was your intention.

1) Your example has nothing to do with the level of the oceans and glacial melting. Why? Because glaciers are over land. The Glaciers which are melting which are expected to cause the oceans to rise are over the land masses of Greenland,

What about that Greenland coral atoll Shawn told me about?

Also, snow is white, white reflects light, so that's why the ice age happened, isn't it?

[Rondinone]

Originally posted by fastpat
I've posted more peer reviewed science than the two of you put together.

Before posting it, you should try reading it. Even your hero Patrick Michaels does not deny global warming. He just takes a more moderate approach to its effects. I read his latest two papers today, have you?

You tout science when it supports your position, then deride it when it does not. Pick a side and stay there.

[island911]

Originally posted by Rondinone
. .
You tout science when it supports your position, then deride it when it does not. Pick a side and stay there.

I suppose we would have to have 'science' fully on one side, for that to happen.

[Jim Richards]

Hey island...when the seas rise, what will you change your screen name to?

[island911]

I'm usually on an island on a lake. The other island place is high bank.

But really, a good question.... WTF will happen . .wth does it matter? If we all gave up our cars, electricity. ... some are saying it's too late. So party like it's 1999.

[Jim Richards]

reef911 and shoal911 seem doable. underwatermountain911 is too long.

[island911]

yeah, too long.

If it rises over 50ft, you can call me U-boat911.

[Jim Richards]

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rondinone
Before posting it, you should try reading it. Even your hero Patrick Michaels does not deny global warming. He just takes a more moderate approach to its effects. I read his latest two papers today, have you?

I did not deny Global Warming, which has been occuring since the last ice age.

I do categorically deny, for what must be the 10th time in this thread, that Global Warming is occuring as a result of the daily activities of humans on earth in the 19th, 20th, and now the 21st centuries.

Please write it down if you can't remember.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by island911
yeah, too long.

If it rises over 50ft, you can call me U-boat911.

I don't think he should call you a u-boat, we don't even know if you can swim.

[thrown_hammer]

Okay, I have the results for the ice on a rock in a tub melting experiment. Since it was pointed out that glacial ice is more dense than ice cube ice I did some figures and decided to double the amount of ice.

Jim, I have good news and bad news…bad news first The Jetta is under water! Good news…You have a house on the ocean!

[Jim Richards]

Whoo hoo! I'll order the chaise lounges and umbrellas! Oh yeah, hasta la vista, Jetta.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
Whoo hoo! I'll order the chaise lounges and umbrellas! Oh yeah, hasta la vista, Jetta.

You can get the umbrellas on sale at Home Depot, and you'll be able to buy a Saturn real soon, a rare one with only three cylinders, great on gas I've heard.

[Jim Richards]

I think I'll buy a boat instead.

[legion]

fing/sing-pilot is already prepared.

[hytem]

The sea level does not rise because of icebergs melting in the ocean.
The sea level only rises from ice melting on land and the water flowing into the ocean, e.g. Greenland. That is the big concern.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by hytem
The sea level does not rise because of icebergs melting in the ocean.
The sea level only rises from ice melting on land and the water flowing into the ocean, e.g. Greenland. That is the big concern.

I thought thermal expansion was the main concern