Drugs

[Turbo_pro]

For 20 years I did battle with Godzilla, the uncontrollable monster and you speak of it as there was some choice and drug dealer are people too.
That is a load of crap.
If Tinkerbell was your monster congratulation but for many of us the monster was real. I would not wish that on anyone, least of all the kids. Did you read about Strawberry Quick? And still you say let everyone choose for themselves.
That's just NUTS!!!!

And for you lames who think legalizing pot will not increase use, California proved it does.
Back in the eighties California decimalized small amounts of pot and usage has been on the rise ever since.
The price went from $10 a bag to well over $40 in less than a year.
It went up because demand went up. Simple economics.

[gr8fl4porsche]

Originally posted by competentone
My comments are just a reaction to the "small amount of meth" comment.

If you know much about meth - it is a product sold in small amounts. 1/4 of a gram at a time. Strong stuff -only takes a little, so I have been told. I am no longer a bid partier due to life slowing down to raise a family, but I see no issues with recreational drug use. How is there possibly any difference between having some cocktails, smoking some weed, doing a few lines, popping some prescribed anti-depresents, valium, ambien to sleep, drinking too much espresso, smoking some cigs, puffing a fat cigar and inhaling a little every now and then, having a couple of glasses of wine at a business dinner, etc.

We as human beings have always found ways to alter our consciousness, always have, do now and always will. Not going to stop it. An endless battle which has been waged for many years now.

We are going to the Baseball Game tomorrow night (Go Cards!!) and are intending to have quite a few cold Budweisers and have our sober wives drive us home. Is this behavior a jailable offense.

Please try to defend your War On Drugs stances with the assumption that there are no negatives other than the health issue.
No crime committed, no one hurt, everyone has a good time. Of course there will be problems and abuse - there is with every facet of life. Deal with the abuse issue and associated problems, but don't punish many for the actions of a few.

I am not for legalization per se, but the decriminalization idea has merit. If you decriminalize weed, that doesn't mean your 12 year old is going to walk into Walgreens and buy a pack of joints. He would have to obtain it illegally just like he does now. I don't see any big changes to social behavior with decriminalization.

[competentone]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro
You are so naive.
Drug sales are like every other business. Good salesman use sales techniques.
Here try this, the first ones free.
Here take this and pay me later....

Salesmen only sell when there is profit to be made.

Most all popular drugs can be produced for mere pennies per dose, but when their production is limited by government edict, and only those willing to break the law and risk jail time are producing and distributing drugs, the artificially limited supply drives up the sale price -- and the profit margins for the sellers.

The high profit margins bring the "good salesmen" into the market. Take away the high profit margins by eliminating the illegal status of drugs and you will no longer find drugs being "pushed" on our youth.

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by competentone
..............................edit................ ..............
The high profit margins bring the "good salesmen" into the market. Take away the high profit margins by eliminating the illegal status of drugs and you will no longer find drugs being "pushed" on our youth.

I would like to see even an iota of evidence to prove this nonsense.


By your thinking if it's cheap enough no one will use it. No increase in use based on economics. That's just stupid.

[competentone]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro
I would like to see even an iota of evidence to prove this nonsense.
By your thinking if it's cheap enough no one will use it. No increase in use based on economics. That's just stupid.

The proof is in the fact that there are dozens of plant derivatives or synthesized chemicals that, if introduced into the human body, create effects very similar to many illegal drugs, yet no one is manufacturing and selling these perfectly legal drugs to our youth!

There is no incentive for anyone to push the drugs because there is no profit in doing so.

[nostatic]

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[Jeff Higgins]

Jim, I hate to say it, but you stand as a fine example of why society should not be allowed to make these personal decisions for it's members. What you stand vehemently opposed to, many have had absolutely no trouble with. If it didn't work for you and your buds, that's truy a shame. It sounds like you had some hard times over it. To project that into, and justify control over others' lives based upon that, is not reasonable. There should really be no laws on how I treat myself, or what I put into my body.

We all have different ideas on what is acceptable in this realm. Some of us apparently like to use the power of law to dictate our standards on that to others; it simply never works. There can be laws that dictate how we treat each other; those are necessary for any society to function. Any laws that dictates aspects of my behavior that do not affect you are basically flawed and virtually unnenforcable.

[Turbo_pro]

nostatic
I made amends to those I had harmed. If you refuse to lie to yourself about your actions quite often your are comfortable about where you sit. I did plenty that required amends but never sold poison to friends.

I wonder if you even know the damage you caused to others you called customers.

Perhaps you would enlighten us on how you controlled the flow of drugs you created. What precautions did you take to guaranty that children were not down the line?

jeff

The argument that personal drug use only effects the one using it is flawed in the extreme. Parents, children, coworkers and employers are all effected by the use of drugs. Society has the responsibility to promote art, prosperity, athletic excellence, scholastic excellence, goodwill towards each other and the health and security of it's members. What is the greater good in drug use. It numbs the mind , stifles creativity, impairs reflexes (endangers live) and promotes criminal activity. If used in the extreme a bout with paranoia and violence is guaranteed. Difficult to see the value in that. We can all see the wonder of crack use in the black community. The number one killer of young black men is young black men. Drugs are at the center of that violence.

The majority of all types of abuse, elder, child and spousal have direct links to substance abuse. Let's put our seal of approval on that.

[nostatic]

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[Turbo_pro]

I appreciate that you are at peace with your past, congratulation. The point is with your experience, you might help other with the potential for self destruction. You've seen it. Why not help others avoid it? How does advocating it's legality help?

I have a friend who was had his drug use well under control. He only partied on the weekend, college grad, owned his own business, owned a house and had a pretty terrific family. His party use of drugs introduced him to the wonderful world of crack and before he knew what was happening he was missing work, the weekend got longer and coming home started to be optional. We saw what was happening and couldn't convince him that he was loosing control. At the advise of friends, his wife moved the kids to a safe place and started looking at option to help him.
A few months pasted and he finally saw the picture. It was a picture of a half dressed man, 2 am, sitting on the ground outside his wife's apartment holding an M16. His kids were fast asleep inside. He had no idea how he got there, but hey, live and let live right? It's his body. Why should we care what he puts in it.

I have had a wife shoot at me, employees steal from me, I've watched friends melt down, friends die and friend kill. All with a direct link to casual drug use.
Crack is a drug of choice for a very short time. Then it's a drug of excuse. There are stages of abuse that are well documented in the health community and they happen in order and are repeatable and predictable. Drugs cause unacceptable behavior. That behavior is predictable. If you're using stay the f*ck away from me. Rehab is good but if it fails jail works fine to that end.

[Jeff Higgins]

Jim, I am not advocating acceptance. I'm advocating treatment in the place of punishment. Would going to jail, rather than treament, have been a better long-term solution for your M-16 toting friend and his family? I seriously doubt it. That's the gist of my argument; treat it as the physcological problem it is (abuse anyway) and not as a crime. Repair lives through treatment rather than destroy them through punishment.

We have been on the punishment path for far too long with no indication whatsoever it is reducing drug use, or even keeping it in check for that matter. We spend billions every year with no end in sight. We ruin lives with our laws that were not already ruined with the drugs. It's time to stop. Truly, only a fool keeps trying the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Our government, and its drug laws, and the element of society that supports both, are those fools. It's not working. That much is obvious. It's long past time to try a different approach.

[red-beard]

Exactly why I started this. What we are doing isn't working. Why not try a different approach.

[Turbo_pro]

Not to belabor the point but in California the laws were changed to get the non trafficker into drug treatment programs. You have to get caught many times before a non trafficker goes to jail.
That's not working either.

The key is social acceptance. We can't promote a culture of drug acceptance and then expect societies members to avoid it.

I am all for treatment, it saved my life, but adding social acceptance to a problem does not make the problem go away.

If we made murder legal, would murders stop. A reasonable person could conclude that murders would increase not decrease. The same is true of all socially unacceptable behavior.
Remember a surge in decadence amongst Roman citizenry was soon followed by the collapse of their entire civilization. In a society where anything goes the next to go is civilization itself.

The answer to your question about MR. M16 going to jail, he says it saved his life. No theory just his experience.
He no longer uses, is successful in his business and is/has been reunited with his family for many years now.
Identifying the problem is the addicts biggest hurdle when it comes to recovery and jail can really turn a light on.

[Jeff Higgins]

I'm glad your buddy made it, Jim; that really is good news. I realize there are those who can relate similar experiences. There are too many, however, who have had their lives ruined, not saved, by the legal system. Lives that would have been fine even in the presence of drugs; lives that may have drifted away from drugs on their own as long as opportunities remained open to them. There are a few of us right here that have those stories.

I'm not sure that any reasonable people would conclude murders would increase if they were "legal". It is still intuitively wrong. Comparing murder to drug use, and claiming our laws have the same deterent affect on both, is somewhat of a stretch. No one argues that murderers need to be punished. Your intoduction of an unrelated non-issue only serves to cloud the issue at hand. You are comparing apples to oranges.

[Turbo_pro]

Clarity not obscurity is almost always my intent.
The comparison was crime vs crime.
If nothing is illegal there is no crime. This is the issue of my comparison not that there was a moral equivalence.
You don't make a problem go away by acceptance. Recognition and appropriate labeling of destructive behavior are the first steps. We can't tell our kids that drugs are OK. IMHO It will lead to our demise.


We all know the story of Robert Downy Jr. rehab after rehab ad nauseam, until a judge finally said enough. It looks like Robert is finally clean. ???

[KFC911]

If we were to confine this discussion to 'hard drugs' Jim might have a point, but in my experience, pot does not even begin to fall into his 'hollywood saga'. In my circles (and I've been around a time or two), I've never seen/heard of anyone 'pushing' pot, and I've certainly seen the legal system cause more harm than pot ever has.

[RoninLB]

Kirsten Dunst Praises Virtues of Pot Smoking
'World Would Be a Better Place' if Everyone Lit Up


By Maira Oliveira/All Headline News Reporter

Los Angeles, CA (BANG) - Kirsten Dunst believes the world would be a "better place" if more people smoked marijuana.

The "Spider-Man" actress has admitted she enjoys using cannabis and has branded America's strict marijuana laws as "ridiculous."

Kirsten told Britain's Live magazine: "I drink moderately, I've tried drugs. I do like weed. I have a different outlook on marijuana than America does.

"I've never been a major smoker, but I think America's view on weed is ridiculous. I mean - are you kidding me? If everyone smoked weed, the world would be a better place."

The actress insists she would never overindulge in drug taking, but says smoking marijuana can be inspirational.

She said: "I'm not talking about being stoned all day, though. I think if it's not used properly, it can hamper your creativity and close you up inside. My best friend Sasha's dad was Carl Sagan, the astronomer. He was the biggest pot smoker in the world and he was a genius."

[nota]

one more time

pot is NOT Meth
pot is not crack or coke
pot is not H or any of the drug CORPs versions of H

the problem is the laws treat pot just like the nasty stuff
and make the smokers go to the dealers to get it

if the laws were not INSANE
pot would not be a problem
and could very eazyly be keap apart from the real drugs
the stupid laws make the connection beween pot and real drugs
a fact in the underground markets

but the nastyest drugs. would be safer if legal but controled
the addic's would get far cheaper pure chit
at a far lower cost, with medical help too
all that is needed is sane drug laws
instead we have a WAR
and WARS are never a good idea
give peace a chance!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mysterytrain]

Pretty funny stuff turbo_Pro..
Sorry to have to ask this..but if you couldn't handle drugs how in the hell can you handle a turbo...always 55 right?

[Turbo_pro]

So far my great moment in my turbo was 165 mph inside a Saleen Mustang on the transition between the 91 and the 15 in New Years day 2001. The Saleen had top speed on me but the big sweeping turn and guard rails got him nervous.

No one handles drugs. They only maintain with the reduced mental and physical capacities that drugs offer.
I challenge any of you pot heads to load up and drive into turn 8 @ Willow with your foot flat in a street turbo.
The big fatty in that equation would be the idiot trying it on drugs.

Back in the day, I flew some dealer friends of mine into Catalonia airport slightly high on coke. We were heavy, high and hot when we reached half way and I sat a pressurized 210 down anyway. Thank the drugs for the clear thought process there. The only thing that saved us were my reflexes as impaired as they were. We slid off the end of the run way sideways and only just stopped before plummeting 1500 ft off the end. I flew us home and never flew again. You see the drugs seemed more important than flying. That was probably not my biggest moment on drugs but that's the best I remember.

Life takes all your senses to navigate it properly.
Drugs don't add to the ride they steal from the experience. You may be different. Perhaps dazed and confused suits your experience.
There isn't anything I did stoned that was better than when I'm clean and sober. Food taste better, relationships feel better and the brain functions clearer.
How many of you who have quit would do the same thing again if given a chance. Most of the choices I made in my life I would do again just for the experience. In a list of do-overs not choosing drugs is my number one. If I can help one person choose to travel a drug free path, I'm in. I will not condone any conduct that tells the kids that this **** is OK, it's not. None of it, not pot , not alcohol, not X, not meth, not coke, none of it. Why can't you guys see that saying it's "OK" sends the wrong message. It is far easier to help the young people obtain than to try and save them later.

Everyone has I right to choose their own path, just don't let your bad choices effect the people around you, especially the kids.