Drugs

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro


As a recovering crack addict I know of what I speak.

Middle class SO.Cal. family, good income, reasonable education, started in high school with occasional alcohol and pot use. 70s experimenting with LSD, mushrooms Peyote. In the 80s, cocaine use Valium and vitamin Q. Downward spiral all through the 80s and the witness to this journey was our son starting at 4. He was well fed never neglected (accept emotionally) but at the age of 10 he was the only adult in the family. In the end, an 8 year crack habit that ended in the closet (6 day run) of our $1,000,000 house. Wouldn't wish that on anyone. Jail, institutions and Death. In 1981 two friends and I decided that crack was the devil and sacrificed our crack pipes to the surf gods. 10 years later I was in a hospital, K was in jail (12 to 15 for sales) and F was dead for cocaine poisoning.

I'm curious. Did you get religion after getting sober? And did you do psychotherapy to get at why you ended up self-medicating?

[steve185]

after about a million miles driven stoned,
in a goverment truck
all I can say is BS

pot doesnot make you crazy like being drunk
you donot speed or drive recklessly without fear
but slower and more carefully
it is just not near the same effect


I do know many drunks who have had bad crashes
and many pill users qualudes esp
but not one person who ever said I was too high on pot and killed a box of nuns and some kittens
it just doesnot happen
quit parroting goverment LIES driven stoned,

I can see that that being constantly stoned has really helped you with spelling, punctuation, capital letters and your rational thinking.
What government dept. are you with?
I bet that even the people on the pro legalize side of the debate don't want to share the road with you.
Steve

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by nostatic
I'm curious. Did you get religion after getting sober? And did you do psychotherapy to get at why you ended up self-medicating?

Started drinking at 8 because alcohol was completely acceptable in our family. Did not start abusing alcohol until I started using drugs.

Raised Irish/Catholic, majored in philosophy in college. During life's experience found a understanding of God separate from any organized religion.

I have a life story but that really isn't the point.

My opinion on drug use is base in the reality of life. Theory is great but I've seen the drug culture from the inside. I hope relating this experience to an ignorant public prevents children from being exposed to this culture.

BTW: in the late 60s early 70s when I was beginning my drug use everyone was saying that pot was organic and you can't get addicted to cocaine. Self medication started a the party.

[legion]

I had one rule in college: I would never show up for class or work drunk or high.

I also interpreted this to mean that I would not let being drunk or high prevent me from doing assignments either. It worked well for me. I smoked pot almost every day in college. My senior year, I got a job offer, and quit that day. Haven't touched the stuff since. I tried opium once, I loved the feeling that it gave me, but hated how I felt the next day. I watched a lot of people let being high become the focus of their lives. Some had problems and got high (or drunk) to escape them. Some just really enjoyed being high but were searching for a more intense feeling.

[Nostril Cheese]

I come from a family of drug addicition. mostly alcohol and cocaine. As for me, that was enough to never need to do either of them. All I do is smoke the occasional joint. Never needed religion or therapy. Just realized my parents were ****ed up and got on with it.

[Jeff Higgins]

There are people out there that will abuse anything. Do we regulate food and diets in the face of so many fat people? Of course not; the burden to the rest of society would be overwhelming. Would you give up your P-car because a few owners can't seem to exercise good judgement with theirs? Should they be regulated out of existance to keep anyone from hurting themselves? Of course not.

No one here is arguing that drug abuse is good. There will always be those that will abuse them. The point is, the current state of affairs is costing the rest of us far too much and has proven to be wholey inneffective in slowing down the abusers. De-criminalize and treat rather than punish; that's the message.

Do any of you with friends in jail, or that have had friends in jail, think that was the answer for them? Hardly. Jail ruins their lives; a criminal record ruins their lives. Not the drugs. Let's not confuse this issue; many of the arguments against drugs, when de-constructed far enough, are arguments against the illegality of drugs. Let's not confuse all of the problems stemming from the criminal trade in drugs, the huge money involved, the violence, the ruined lives, all of that, with the actual affect of the drugs. Let's not confuse those who would abuse them, under any circumstances, with those who would use them responsibly. The drugs are a far smaller problem than the laws, and infrastructure built around enforcing those laws.

[nota]

Originally posted by steve185
I can see that that being constantly stoned has really helped you with spelling, punctuation, capital letters and your rational thinking.
What government dept. are you with?
I bet that even the people on the pro legalize side of the debate don't want to share the road with you.
Steve

I couldn't spell as a kid and hated english rules
long before the late 60's drug era
never ever hurt anyone on the road
and only hurt myself once on a bike sober at the time too

sorry but the facts are pot just is nothing like DWI
you are repeating goverment LIES
that have no real world basis
just BS

did my time in civil service and now retired
so forget getting me fired
btw the majority of the dept drove stoned
and had a very good record other then the drunks
they were then killers, and distroyed many trucks too
all of my rides were retired woreout but uncrashed

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins

No one here is arguing that drug abuse is good. There will always be those that will abuse them. The point is, the current state of affairs is costing the rest of us far too much and has proven to be wholey ineffective in slowing down the abusers. De-criminalize and treat rather than punish; that's the message.

Why that's just crazy talk!

Those of you pointing out your history of being surrounded by drug abusers and thus getting involved in it yourself seem to miss the point that drugs being illegal didn't deter your friends or family (or yourself) from using them.

I for one am tired of murders/rapist/child molesters being released from jail to make room for someone who was selling pot.

And yes I lost ten years of my life to drug abuse and the only thing that saved me was a realization that it all was a big waste of time and money and no one would or could pull my a$$ out of the fire but myself.

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
There are people out there that will abuse anything. Do we regulate food and diets in the face of so many fat people? Of course not; the burden to the rest of society would be overwhelming. Would you give up your P-car because a few owners can't seem to exercise good judgement with theirs? Should they be regulated out of existance to keep anyone from hurting themselves? Of course not.

No one here is arguing that drug abuse is good. There will always be those that will abuse them. The point is, the current state of affairs is costing the rest of us far too much and has proven to be wholey inneffective in slowing down the abusers. De-criminalize and treat rather than punish; that's the message.

Do any of you with friends in jail, or that have had friends in jail, think that was the answer for them? Hardly. Jail ruins their lives; a criminal record ruins their lives. Not the drugs. Let's not confuse this issue; many of the arguments against drugs, when de-constructed far enough, are arguments against the illegality of drugs. Let's not confuse all of the problems stemming from the criminal trade in drugs, the huge money involved, the violence, the ruined lives, all of that, with the actual affect of the drugs. Let's not confuse those who would abuse them, under any circumstances, with those who would use them responsibly. The drugs are a far smaller problem than the laws, and infrastructure built around enforcing those laws.

Same old *****. Find a responsible meth or crack user. Take a couple of years, I'll wait. Do you want your 16 year old baby sitter blazing a fatty around your 5 year?
How many low income parents will buy pot, crack, heroine or meth instead of milk.
Smoke a fatty and nod as your 1 year old wallows in his/her own *****. Crying his eyes out while you get mellooooow.
Society can't regulate bad parenting, let's not make it worse.

You lames that want to legalize drugs and the same group that want to criminalize public smoking (dangers of second hand smoke) and yet wouldn't hesitate to smoke dope around your kids.

Want to use drugs, step away from the kids.
Pleeeease stop.

BTW: jails aren't filled with first time drug offenders. The reason for overcrowding in our jail system is repeat offenders.
Probation violations.

[Jeff Higgins]

We can't save people from themselves, Jim, no matter how many behavior-specific laws we try to pass. These folks are not irresponsible because they use drugs; it's the other way around. Understanding that distinction is key to understanding the whole argument.

I could give a ***** if people smoke in public. I'm against laws regulating that behavior as well. I don't smoke pot, so it has never been anissue around my kids.

It seems as though you have to reach just a bit, and assign all kinds of unsavory attributes to people you don't know in order to make those people appear unreasonable. It looks like you are not able to stay on point and provide a reasonable argument against legalization (and diverting money into treatment rather than punishment), so you go after the person rather than the idea.

The unreasonable position here is to keep pouring money down the same rat hole that has simply not worked. It's time to try something else. Try addressing that, rather than making your spurious claims that we all must be smoking pot in front of, and neglecting our kids. Your bad experiences and lifetime fuch-ups are not necessarily shared by all.

[Turbo_pro]

Jeff I'm am not speaking in the hypothetical. I've seen what I speak of.

Drugs are not used by irresponsible people only. Drug use creates irresponsible people. I was one of them.
I didn't abuse alcohol until drug use was injected into the equation.

Drugs change behavior. Some people to a greater existent but in my 20 years of drug culture I never met a single person who could tell me their life was improved by drug use.

The thought that the same people in the same numbers will use and abuse drugs whether legal or not is crazy.
Remember when pot prices really started to climb. I was there. The powers that be (politicians) thought if they decriminalized pot (made possession of a small amount) and increased the penalties for sales that the price increase would reduce use.
Price was not the issue penalty was.
The truth is that more people started using pot.

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro

How many low income parents will buy pot, crack, heroine or meth instead of milk.
Smoke a fatty and nod as your 1 year old wallows in his/her own *****. Crying his eyes out while you get mellooooow.
Society can't regulate bad parenting, let's not make it worse.

The same person you describe could just as easily be sucking on a half G of Jack Daniels and a pack of Marlboro's.

[nostatic]

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[Jeff Higgins]

I've seen it too, Jim. I still have a few friends that are , in my opinion, irreversibly fuched up. I have far, far more that are not. I really cannot think of anyone in my circle of friends in school that did not smoke pot. None would turn down a line, or a hit of acid, or a handfull of shrooms, or pretty much anything else for that matter, either. All are professionals with careers today; all have put that all behind them without ever having hit rock bottom before deciding to quit or cut way, way back.

Most of my friends drink. Most do so responsibly, a few do not. Some still smoke pot, but it certainly has no impact on their lives any more so than a couple of beers a week does on mine. I see the same patterns of behavior in the drinking population as the drug using population; some can keep it in perspective, some cannot.

I just don't think punishment is the answer. It has not worked, and it has ruined lives needlessly. When I look back at my circle of friends from way back when, I shudder to think where any of us would be today if we had gotten busted and now carried a criminal record. Thrown out of school, and on and on. The drugs clearly were not a problem in this crowd. The laws sure would have been. That's all I'm saying; the law is no answer to the problem. Treatment will reach those that are salvagable; no amount of punishment will reach those who are not.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by steve185
Drugs are still for losers.

Then you do not do any drugs?

Lets see, no ice tea (caffein), coffee (caffein again), soda's (sugar, massive amounts of sugar and again caffein).

Smoke? Nah, thats a drug (you do not want to know what they are putting in cigarettes these days) and you would never do a drug.

Drink? Nah, thats a drug! The worlds most widely used drug is booze.

ANY SUBSTANCE THAT ALTERS YOUR MOOD OR BODY CHEMISTRY IS A DRUG! Mountain Dew, Ice tea, a Budweiser and so on. Its not just what are called drugs like pot or blow but all of the above.

When you are clean, totally clean then you can live in your glass house and feel safe. Otherwise I would be very careful.

Turbo_pro BTW: jails aren't filled with first time drug offenders. The reason for overcrowding in our jail system is repeat offenders.
Probation violations.

Beg to differ with you. Part of what you say is correct but our jails are filling up with people who are first timers on drug convictions. Yes, the vast majority of the inmates are there for other issues but how many of them started by being busted for pot, then heading to jail and learning to be a criminal while there.

Making drugs illegal is going the route of booze in the 1930's. Eventually most of them will be legal or de-criminalized and we can put real criminals in prison and not those just wanting to get high the way most of the rest of the population are by using booze.

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by scottmandue
The same person you describe could just as easily be sucking on a half G of Jack Daniels and a pack of Marlboro's.

Exactly. So why add to the nightmare of child neglect and abuse.

Drugs ruin lives. All lives? no but I can't find enough lives improved to make legalizing misery seem reasonable.
Ruin your own life but not the lives of those who choose not to participate.

Children don't choose their parents.

[scottmandue]

I doubt the lady who left her baby in the car while she went shopping and asked the valet to keep on it while she was gone was on drugs.

I don't think anyone here is arguing the proposition that illegal drugs improve anyones life. The question is, is having drugs illegal improving anyones life?

[Turbo_pro]

Jeff
You get no argument from me on the need for increased treatment facilities.
I'm all for free treatment centers.
If fact mandatory treatment centers sound good to me. Get clean or we'll kill you !!
Of course the last line was a joke.
My point is, your friends got lucky. Any professional in the treatment centers you talk about that wants it to be legal is looking to increase their customer base. They all know that legalization will exacerbate the problem.

Making a problem legal doesn't fix the problem. Recreation drug use rarely helped anyone and contrary to you life experience, if you asked those people who quit you're likely to find a motivational experience that suggested they quit.

[Turbo_pro]

Claiming that criminality does not deter use is like saying, we don't need speed limits because people speed anyway.
You may want to argue that punishment should fit the crime but that is a value judgment for society to make.

Society must set limits. We do this with standards and laws. Society suffers when one of it's members suffers. For society to encourage/approve of a behavior that is detrimental to any member is self destructive.

I guarantee you that if drugs were legal during my drug use days that the use by me and my acquaintances would have increased.

[nostatic]

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