Mazda Will Continue to Develop Rotary Engine
 

Jim Cesiro should like this article.

Are you ready for hydrogen power and or Diesel powered rotary engines? How about rotary hybrids?

http://www.carpages.ca/go/autonews/mazda_will_continue_to_develop_rotary_engine.aspx

Whatever.... they will still sound like crap.

rotaries havn't caught on yet for a very good reason,:
they're junk. they eat oil, gas, and everything else, giving back only a helluva noice, a billion rpms, and 0 torque. yeah, i've driven an rx-7 too, and yeah, it was a bit of a kick, but the engine simply isn't practical for most people

Wonder if they will go back to Le Mans and kick butt like they did in 91 when they won the race? It is a cool engine.

I remember doing some work for Gleason's in Rochester NY on the machines the were used to fabricate the first iteration of Wankel engines. Fascinating project.....

Kudos to Mazda. The rotary is what put them on the map, and they're showing due respect to the brand by not letting its historical significance be forgotten.

It reminds me of the difference between Disney and Warner Bros.

Disney continually updates Mickey Mouse with new cartoons and other projects, while Warner Bros. has effectively allowed Bugs Bunny and the Looney Tunes to die into obscurity.

Both studios were founded in large part on their animation.

But only one seems to care about that history and is remembered for it.

i'll happily watch 28yr old reruns of Looney Tunes vs. the crap Disney is putting out these days. Disney hasn't produced a quality movie/cartoon in a LOOOONG time IMO. Lion King, etc. are just the same damn story rehashed over and over again with horrible soundtracks and misguided messages hidden in the background.

Mazda has a gimmick and they're sticking with it; seems like they need to do something to maintain brand recognition.

Mazda has kept the rotary as their 'halo piece', but if they dropped it, I doubt many would notice.
Mazda's current strengths are the MX-5, (the best selling convertible sports car of all time), the 3s (which shares a chassis with the Volvo S-40 and the European Focus) and the 6. The latter two cars are quietly going about their business, managing to look just a bit different from their competitors and, through Mazdaspeed, adding a serious punch for those who want it.
For the 'crossover crowd', they have managed to take Ford's Edge platform and produce the CX-9, a 7 passenger vehicle that makes the Edge look like the box it came in.
In addition, the longer term reviews I have read, (and my neighbor's reports on their MX-5s, 3s and 6s) seem to indicate these puppies are put together well.
I wonder if it is just pride that keeps Mazda putting money into the rotary.

Les

While the rotary has some great attributes, it's biggest problem, one that cannot be fixed, is poor volumetric efficiency.

A crescent-shaped combustion chamber is simply not as efficient as a round cylinder. Added to that is the combustion forces pushing the rotor at an angle- not directly onto a piston dome.

I had a first generation RX-7, and liked it. But with gas prices climbing, the rotary is less attractive, and will most likely remain an oddball.

I always thought that a rotary should be more efficient as it has no reciprocating mass. Everything moves in one direction--nothing ever reverses direction.

" Everything moves in one direction--nothing ever reverses direction."

Not exactly the case. The rotors revolve around an eccentric, (a short-throw crank, if you will) which means its mass is moving back and forth a few inches while it spins. Think of trying to hold a few pounds of aluminum as it spins and moves its axis through a three inch circle with each revolution, at 8000 rpm.
A whole lotta shakin' goin' on!

Les

Les, actually they are quite smooth, they use a counterweight on the eccentric shaft behind the flywheel to balance it out. Smoother power than any other car I have owned.

It moves in a circle, no transfer of up and down motion to circular motion, this makes for a very smooth engine.

Is it pride or a rabbid following that keeps the rotary in production. The same could be said for the rear engined 911 platform, obviously the Cayman posses a much better balanced platform with its mid engine layout and could easily replace the 911 as the super car that Porsche makes.

The same goes for the Rotary engine, I am not interested in the RX8 at all, I think the Renesis engine, while a remarkable piece of technology putting out 250HP with out a turbo is amazing, Its what happens to them when you boost them that disapoints me. The side seals let go.

So here I am stuck with my 20 year old RX7 making over 500 HP from 1.3 liters because everyone knows they have poor volumetric efficiency running circles around most every car I encounter on the track and at autocrosses.

I am now challenging other members of a local wesite to beat me in an Autocross, think of it as street racing but with turns and timing lights, I will pay anyone that beats me $100 but if they loose I get $50. I am going to make a lot of money with my poorly designed poor volumetric efficiency, Rotary car.

Hopefully Mazda will grow some balls and turn out a 20B powered RX7 in the future along the lines of the one Pettit Racing makes. They transplant a 3 rotor engine (20B) into a 3rd Generation RX7 and it makes 550HP easily. Many go into the 700HP range with them.

Consider my 2 rotor engine put 400 to the wheels and will soon put over 450 to the wheels and trust me there is plenty of torque. Enough to make my 10" wide Hoosier slicks gove up the fight as I rail through the RPMs in 2nd and 3rd Gear making me use my right foot an aweful lot to keep it straight.... god I love that car.

You may now continue with your Rotary bashing.

Rotaries are fantastic engines, I was lucky enough to rebuild one once and was amazed at how simple they really are. I understand the rotor seal issue is largely solved now, and I really like that there is another option out there to the piston engine, which really is an antiquated idea...

Jim, I said that rotaries have great attributes, and that I like them. No bashing intended. But do you disagree about their efficiency?

While the horsepower per displacement is spectacular, the horsepower per fuel used is usually less than a piston engine.

You've got gobs of power from your RX-7, but I doubt you would consider it an economy car.

Good points:

-They rarely suffer a catastrophic failure. If one rotor goes, you drive home with less power.
-Smooth.
-High rpms can deliver high horspower numbers.
-Compact design.

The bad:

-The crescent shaped combustion chamber has poor volumetric efficiency. More gas, more emmissions.

I think the poor efficiency is in part due to Mazda not focusing on it as a high priority. Just a guess but with the attention on oil we have today that could change.

True, Mazda couldn't win Le Mans until they were given some concession for fuel millage (teams are allocated fuel for the race). But it was a marginal problem. I have had a few RX7's and never was concerned about millage. Maybe the old 12A or 13B used 5% / 10% more fuel than say a 280Z or 911 of the day. Not sure but the point is - so what. The fuel efficiency argument was laid down by those looking for a negative and perpetuated because in reality there are few negatives associated with the engine. It is a great engine and the cars are awesome as well. I especially liked the second generation.

Dantilla - I agree if your looking for good gas milage the Rotary is not for you. But HP comes at a price. A similar 1.3 liter piston engine would make 90-120HP at best where a 1.3 liter Rotary is making 230-250HP so, yeah its not going to be a 30+ MPG engine.

My car gets 5 MPG on the track, what do you guys get with your 911's? I am curious?

City driving I get 12-14 MPG with the RX7 and I get 20 MPG with my 911.

Highway driving I get 18-20 MPG with my RX7 and 30-33MPG with my 911.

So, yes, I agree it does not get good gas milage.

I will be dynoing my RX7 really soon, I'll be sure to post up the dyno sheet so you can see how soon power comes online with my engine, I think you will be suprised. Keep in mind I set this car up to be an Autocross monster.

jim do you have any videos of this puppy autocrossing?

i think it's time for Pinks to hit the cones!

I saw one of the aftermarket tuners on Speed TV going on about the high performance Diesels (maybe it was Roush) he has been working on. The pre-detonation problems of gas and spark plugs engines do not exist with Diesel, all he has to worry about the the strength on the parts now and loves it.

I'm thinking maybe diesel is a good direction for the rotary for the same reasons, we shall see.

I agree that the sound of two rotor isn't too great, a 3-rotor on the other hand sounds really wicked, like Ferrari V12 wicked. Of course they get even worse mileage than the 2 rotor.

Here's the '58 Sprite that a friend and I drove at several SCCA autox nationals. He took home a few championships while I just had fun warming the tires ;) . It has a 20B 3-rotor with peripheral ports and slide valve injection for over 400 hp in a 1600 lb car! He sold it last year to buy a FSCCA car which is also pretty fun.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1179842822.jpg

I always thought it would be cool if Mazda designed the rotary to be more "modular" - so you could build up a three, four, five, six whatever rotor motor depending on your budget and application. It would make displacement mods way easier than they are for a piston motor.

I was actually shopping for a RX7 but the 944 was cheaper :D

Have any of you rotary haters seen the RX8's kicking ass in GT racing?

FYI - I have laid down the gauntlet if you will on a local car racing forum, I am giving 2 to 1 odds that they cannot beat me in an Autocross and this is with my 911 on street tires. In a month or 2 it will be in the RX7.

The first clip in this vid is a dirving school drill, very short run with some tricky turms.

The second run was the FTD for that event and the 3rd would have been faster but I lost it as you see, I ended up off course but at least I did not loose it completely. I felt it letting go and was ready for the snap, I just drifted it around and back on course. :D

<embed src="http://videos.streetfire.net/vidiac.swf" FlashVars="video=378afa88-a3f1-4884-8a4e-abab7a5b799b" quality="high" bgcolor="#ffffff" width="428" height="352" name="ePlayer" align="middle" allowScriptAccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></embed>

Oh amd if you look close I am giving a kid a ride in the last run, I ALWAYS give rides to anyone that asks. Its part of the fun for the day freaking out a passanger. FTD's are fun but its more fun to share. Normally, if I give a ride, I set a pretty fast time, then the next run without the weight is blistering fast.

This is where you screwed up. Once you Autocross your RX7 you can join Mazdaspeed and get parts for more than 50% off. Mechanics cannot get these prices.

So buying parts for my RX7 is VERY cheap. I have no idea if 944 parts are affordable but its hard to be 50% off. ;)

Jim, was there a bus with air brakes behind you in that first video?

What is that sound, the gearbox or the exhaust?

Jim, there is a RX7 convertable in my area for sale... not sure what year... are thye any good?

What do you want to do with it? Cruiser? Autocross? Track?

Vert is a good cruiser, any non turbo RX7 is a good reliable car but not very fast, my brother had a non turbo RX7 and it was setup for Autocross and it handled really good. Made me think my car was screwed up suspension wise, the turn in on his car was uncanny and made my car look like an understeering pig.

Turbo RX7's = big power but just like 930's when you tune them up they will cost money.


The big question is what do you want it for?

I would look for a 1986-88 Non turbo for a cheap Autocross track car.

Or a 1989-1991 Turbo if you want more power, its a little heavier but it has a better engine/turbo setup stock.

The beauty of the Turbo is that if you simply bolt on an exhaust you'll pick up an easy 60HP wich = about 250HP.

Do a few more upgrades like bigger injectors, SAFC and boost controller and you'll see an easy 250 to the wheels.

Your messing with me aren't you?

The loud air sound is the blow off valve between the intercooler and intake. When I take my foot off the gas or lift a little it allows the boost to escape and let the tubo maintain its full RPM's thereby the Turbo is ready to hit full boost again when I get back on the gas the the blow off vavle closes giving me full power instantly. (takes big breath)

My comment was tongue-n-cheek, but I did not know what the sound was.

Thank you for the quick turbo lesson, I just learned something.:)

I wasn't sure if you were joking or not. I thought everyone knew what a blow off valve was these days with all the tuner imports on the road.

Yes, its a loud and annoying sound but when I am Autocrossing (and on track days) it is necessary.

Once I let my foot off the throttle the the butterflies on my throttle body close it creates a blockage in the flow from the turbo to the engine. This will cause backpressure on the turbo and it will slow down a lot trying to fight the backflow. By releasing the pressure (blow off valve) it lets the turbo spin free until I open the throttle again. Then the BOV will close and the turbo is already spinning at close to full RPM's and ready to give me full boost in a fraction of a second.

So I will gladly take the noise with the performance gain.

Also in the 1st clip the cam corder was mounted on the front hood right next to the BOV on a sticky pod.

I'm in the Detroit area, land of the big V8, what are these "tuners" you speak of?

:D

Jim... do you build your own engines or do you have a preferred builder? And what engine are you using... the 13b?

I have read about how the RX8 has been winning almost every category it enters. One of the big car magazines - R&T or C&D, had a comparo test with all the new GT cars and the five-year-old RX8. The RX8 won.

After all, in some circles the RX8 is called the "four-door 911."

Quite simply, the rotary engines do a poor job of capturing the bang (of fuel an air). Many people latch on to the 'air pump' simplities that the rotary has, and don't consider capturing the work of the fuel.

THe weight savings of the simple small engine are generally offset by the extra weight of extra fuel. Unless you are using it for short sprints (autocross) ... tho' at that point, why not just go electric?

I use a local guy, he is from North Carolina and a total hillbilly. He is also a master at fabricating anything.

I am running a 13B-REW out of a 3rd Gen RX7. I took the twins off and put on a HKS T04B single. I use a Motec M4 to control it all.


I needed more fuel. Do these lines look big enough?
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...3/DSC02034.jpg


I had him make a custom ported throttle body. Its 30% bigger than stock.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...3/DSC02022.jpg

Here is the hillbilly looking at my fried engine. I overheated it to 280 degrees at a DE. I then drove it for a week before I decided to take it off the road and pull it apart. It would still turn sideways in second gear if you floored it. It had 1/2 the compression it was supposed to have.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...3/DSC01945.jpg

My wife is loving this SA22. It's spec'd for SCCA IT7 club racing. The engine is a bone stock 12a, but the suspension is tight.

After watching how well she took to the track, I figure she'll be looking for more power for next year. I'm just planning ahead for now.

What do you think would be a good upgrade? A tweaked 13b?
I've been told it's a simple drop-in solution, and I don't want to get stupid on $$. If we're looking at more than a few grand, I'll just upgrade her to a 911.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1179753801.jpg

edit: Your lines are big enough, but what's pushing your fuel? I hope you upgraded to a bigger pump!

Very true but at the time I wasn't aware of the Mazdaspeed deal and my buy in budget was $4K. The RX7's I looked at for $4K didn't look very nice. Plus I was looking for a fun weekend cruiser that would be sporty in stock configuration... I don't have the time or money to spend wrenching on a second car.

Have you considered doing a port job on your wifes car?

An aggressive street port will make a lot more power. If you want, and your willing give my mechanic a call I would love for you to use him even though he is far away, he is really good with FB's more than any other generation.

He has a ITA racecar as well that has won a few races as well. He knows how to get the most power out of them bith legally and when "being innovative" ;)
I'll PM his contact info to you. A good port job with a few other tweeks will get you another 50-60 HP in that car. Throw in a light weight flywheel and you'll have a nice little screamer. Has it been lightened as much as possible?

The fuel for my car? Enough to support 700RWHP!

Here is the fuel pump, its a monster.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...DSC_0215-1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...DSC_0216-1.jpg

Then we upgraded the fuel rails to move the fuel. I cannot wait to dyno this car. I am afraid I do not have enough Turbo anymore. I have a GT35R (ball bearing turbo that is about 30% larger than my current one) sitting in a box just need a manifold.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...DSC_0210-1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...DSC_0212-1.jpg

The car all the parts I am showing is in. Total sleeper. No one expects it to be so fast. I love it.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...3/3d9ab498.jpg

Being a '79, her car is still sportin a carb.
Lightened? Well, short of going with glass body panels, yeah.
I'm not looking to bump up her power just yet. Let her finish out the season and build up her skilz first. But I would certainly look into giving your guy a call when it's time.

Nice.... Aeromotive pump. I like their stuff.