Free healthcare.

[sjf911]

Actually, this would not be communistic. What's more is, it continues to allow for the consumption and/or use of illness promoting foods/activities thereby preserving choice (making the individuals through taxes pay for the societal cost of their behaviors). You just have to pay for it. At the same time, it removes the active solicitation/promotion of these agents of illness.

[911teo]

My comment was a little tongue in cheek but it would be a huge curtailing of personal freedom.

The govenrment that decides what's best for you is not that appealing to me.

[Noah930]

Originally posted by berettafan
when he works for free he has no income; there is no 'deduction' for missing income. you don't pay tax on income you don't have. furthermore if you incur expenses in your business for a job in which you end up getting stiffed on you can still deduct those expenses.

I understand it very well thank you. i only posted to correct small details in a portion of Moses' post from an accounting/tax standpoint.

Moses is being forced to donate his time. that is the $$ discussion in a nutshell. he is not losing ANY tax deductions by doing so nor is he paying tax on income he never received.

Good point. However, medicine is also a bit different than other industries. In how many other industries does non-voluntary free work (either labor, expertise, or hard goods) play a significant role in the efforts of the industry? This is not just a free bag of chips with a lunch order--this is the whole lunch (for now and forever for this patient) for free. And it's not just here and there. It's potentially a significant portion of the population (depending on where a practice is located). And you can't forget the liability that Moses is on the hook for, should something go wrong. There's another financial aspect of the medical industry that not too many other industries face. Should a different set of rules (tax accounting in this case) be in effect?

[berettafan]

Teo your sentiment was the overwhelming consensus in a thread on smoking not long ago. i tend to applaud ideas like sjf's but i am most certainly in the minority.

noah interestingly enough when the US Gov. wants to promote a particular behavior or ethnic group or special interest group it offers all sorts of tax incentives to do so. uncle sam wanted the big 3 to earn more money so it offered accelerated depreciation on large vehicles (the subliminal message was 'go buy an SUV' even if the actual language wasn't so bold). however, any tax subsidies offered to docs to ease the burden of forced volunteerism would essentially be the subsidizing of health care for illegals. the difference being that we'd all share the cost instead of dumping it on medical professionals.

docs shouldn't be bearing this cost at ALL and neither should the rest of us. i would find it preferable that we all share the burden rather than taking it directly out of the pockets of people like Moses BUT this is not a solution.

[Superman]

Originally posted by 911teo
My comment was a little tongue in cheek but it would be a huge curtailing of personal freedom.

The govenrment that decides what's best for you is not that appealing to me.

Not tongue in cheek at all. Imagine my amusement here on a daily basis when I see very conservative people chastize gubmit with one breath and then with the next breath suggest additional gubmit regulations and much more vigorous enforcement.

[Tobra]

If he donates his time, he is losing income he could be earning from paying customers, this is a hidden expense that you either don't understand or don't care to try and understand.

The net effect is that you don't know WTF you are talking about yet you insist on commenting, thanks a bunch for playing.

[sjf911]

My comment was a little tongue in cheek but it would be a huge curtailing of personal freedom.

The government that decides what's best for you is not that appealing to me.

This is our current dilemma. Many people point their finger at "health-care" as the agent of blame but it is actually a societal/cultural failing. What you have is an industry of "sick-care". If you want health-care, stop by the gym and "whole food" store every day.

[Noah930]

Originally posted by berettafan
docs shouldn't be bearing this cost at ALL and neither should the rest of us. i would find it preferable that we all share the burden rather than taking it directly out of the pockets of people like Moses BUT this is not a solution.

Which is why I find it even more ridiculous that Arnie proposes an additional 2% income tax on California docs to pay for said indigent care.

And this discussion hasn't even touched upon the disparity in what a physician (or anyone else in the medical industry) bills, and what insurance companies are willing/obligated to pay. Imagine going into a restaurant, and telling the waiter how much you're willing to pay, regardless of what's printed on the menu.

[berettafan]

Originally posted by Tobra
If he donates his time, he is losing income he could be earning from paying customers, ******this would seem to be a foregone conclusion once Moses tells us the patient failed to pay and had no insurance, i didn't think it required restating in my post*****



this is a hidden expense that you either don't understand or don't care to try and understand. ******there is nothing 'hidden' about it, as mentioned above the rest of us already fully understand that and apparently everyone else here understands that i am not disputing Moses' loss of income (i even pointed it out a few times)********


The net effect is that you don't know WTF you are talking about yet you insist on commenting, thanks a bunch for playing. ****are you one of those people that used to throw the Parchesi board across the room when you were losing?***

[911teo]

Originally posted by sjf911
This is our current dilemma. Many people point their finger at "health-care" as the agent of blame but it is actually a societal/cultural failing. What you have is an industry of "sick-care". If you want health-care, stop by the gym and "whole food" store every day.

Very valid point.

I personally do not expect the govt to come and bail me out, but I saw our current system fail us and I think we should have a safety net for the less fortunate among us

[sjf911]

Which is why I find it even more ridiculous that Arnie proposes an additional 2% income tax on California docs to pay for said indigent care.

This is how you pacify the masses. You pretend that someone else is paying, especially if they are "richer" than you.

[Racerbvd]

This is one reason some of my buddies have changed professions. Being taxed and insured out of the business. Funny thing, people love to gripe about how much doctors earn, but don't take into account how many years and how much money they invested to open their practices, and even after they open, the related cost to keep the doors open. Like the old saying, you get what you put in.

Not tongue in cheek at all. Imagine my amusement here on a daily basis when I see very conservative people chastize gubmit with one breath and then with the next breath suggest additional gubmit regulations and much more vigorous enforcement

Sup, you won't hear that BS from me, but super liberal NYC has already done that I live by this statement

"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should
be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself"

[alf]

Wait a minute here. Anyone could go into the hospital and demand care? Legal, Illegal, Citizen or not. If i say I have no insurance and need urgetn care will I get service?

Sheesh, why am I bothering with paying for medical insurance.

[sjf911]

Sheesh, why am I bothering with paying for medical insurance.

If our local Catholic hospital is typical of the rest, they will find out you have assets and go after every one they can when you don't pay. It is "getting blood from a turnip" people that skate by the system.

[teenerted1]

send her bill to the border patrol....it was their responsibility to keep the mother out in the first place so the child is their responsibility now.

wonder if GW took medical costs into account before he wanted amnesty before a secure border.

if you are going to come into our country to make a better life for yourself, you better be able to pay for the cost of living here like the rest of us.

[sjf911]

You are contradicting yourself. I personally like ice cream, but I don't eat a tub of it a day.

OK, got carried away with that one. Just tax the hell out of it and stop the government from promoting it as a "health food".

[Superman]

My perspective does not entirely miss folks' point about personal responsibility and the Welfare State creating a sense of entitlement. I get it. Does that mean I will substitute your judgement for mine? Nope. In a social construct more like Sparta, where you would expect folks to take responsibility for their decisions, even for their poor decisions, I still have a concern. It is just possible that a poor man might work hard and not get rich. It is further possible that the poor man's infant daughter might become gravely ill. And that poor man may have access to a firearm. So.....this delicious notion that we can all save money while changing lazy good-for-nothing freeloaders into productive and responsible citizens.....well, I think that's an amusing theory.

[Moses]

Originally posted by alf
Wait a minute here. Anyone could go into the hospital and demand care? Legal, Illegal, Citizen or not. If i say I have no insurance and need urgetn care will I get service?

Sheesh, why am I bothering with paying for medical insurance.

The hospital cannot refuse treatment of anybody based on the ability to pay. Period. They can, however, track you down and ruin your credit if you don't pay.

The trick is to do what my patient did; Give a false name and a false address. Provide no identification. You can walk into the finest medical facilities in our nation and steal the best care available. There is NOTHING they can do. Even if they know you are lying about your name and address, they have no legal recourse while you are a patient in the facility. None. And get this, they can't even transfer you to the local county hospital! Deadbeat patients can only be transferred at THEIR request.

A few years ago a pretty bright Mexican woman was discovered to have a serious heart condition while she was pregnant.(In Mexico) She arrived at our hospital with a false name and no address. She got first-class high risk prenatal care and delivery of her baby then the next day in a beautifully scripted performance she complained of chest pain. A cardiac evaluation was done and she got a free mitral valve replacement by a top notch heart team.

[carambola]

so am i the only person that sees a different problem.
lady has committed multiple acts of fraud.
keep the jane doe baby as collateral

[alf]

Originally posted by Moses
The hospital cannot refuse treatment of anybody based on the ability to pay. Period. They can, however, track you down and ruin your credit if you don't pay.

The trick is to do what my patient did; Give a false name and a false address. Provide no identification. You can walk into the finest medical facilities in our nation and steal the best care available. There is NOTHING they can do. Even if they know you are lying about your name and address, they have no legal recourse while you are a patient in the facility. None. And get this, they can't even transfer you to the local county hospital! Deadbeat patients can only be transferred at THEIR request.

Now that is a nice little scam if you could live with yourself afterwards. You do not have to be an illegal immigrant to do this; probably easier to pull it off if you are not.