American vs European cars.

[livi]

What are the factors that have had significant impact on the car manufacturers in America and Europe ? On one hand we have America pioneering the production design very early. Large companies and a lot of recourses and money. On the other hand we have relatively small countries like Germany in Europe. Crushed infrastructure and poverty during the War.

There has always been a 'typical' American car. Big, comfortable cruiser with large engine and automatic transmission. At least that is what we Europeans like to say. During the 60īs and 70īs America saw several classic muscle cars with a focus on fast strait forward. There still are cars like the Corvette and Ford GT, but there is not the same diversity as in Europe.

In Europe, only in Germany, there is Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Porsche. All with a much different philosophy of building cars. In Europe there are several sports car manufacturers, again with a very different focus on how to build a car than in America.

What are the reasons for this difference ? Cultural ? Geographic ? Economic ? Historic ?

Please note, I am not saying Americans make inferior cars - just different.

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by livi

What are the reasons for this difference ? Cultural ? Geographic ? Economic ? Historic ?

.

yes,yes,yes,yes

[dd74]

Cars remain an appliance for most Americans. Particularly the newer ones, cars to us are no more significant than a blender or electric razor, except with the cost of repair and replacement.

As to Europe, I've heard the average span of ownership of a Volvo used to be over 17 years. So cars have higher value.

Also, auto motoring was born in Europe. The love of it, the speed, etc.

Making the most product for the least amount of expense, i.e. the assembly line - which conversely homogenizes the automobile's meaning and value, was a pure old Yankee invention.

[lilacRS]

I thought it was harder to own an old car in Western European countries as they have more stringent inspections, so after a few years, its too costly to fix an old car to pass inspections?

[livi]

Come to think of it - there are several very good Porsche magazines only in Great Britain, but (as far as I know) the only American Porsche mag (that I can find in Sweden) is Excellence.

What dd said, is it motoring traditions/racing heritage that differs ? Why in that case ? There is no obvious reason for Europeans to have evolved a motoring/racing interest and not the Americans. Or is there ?

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I agree. In general, people tend to value longevity more in Europe. This can be seen in the cars, the jobs (people tend to stay at one for a very long time), the houses and architectural choices/construction methods, etc. Much more value on long-term, durability, etc.

U.S. is much more about fast, now, quick, cheap, throwaway. Exactly what China gives us.

[Normy]

OK, let me tell you about my experience with an American car, a 1997 Ford Aerostar minivan... and a German car...a 1997 Volkswagen Jetta GLX.

I bought the Aerostar in October of 2003 as an "airport car", or car to park at the airport. It was 6 years old, I bought it for WAY less than it was worth: I went looking for a Mercury Villager or Nissan Quest [same product...] and found this Aerostar with 86,000 miles. There was a bunch of repainting- the right front fender had been repainted, along with the right sliding door. But other than that...there was nothing wrong with the vehicle. This car sold for $14,000 new in 1997 and my understanding is that it was owned for 5 years by an hispanic woman, who did no maintenace but didn't want it at the end of the lease.

The Ford Aerostar vehicle is a product of a "quick program" by the Ford Motor Company in 1983. Chrysler had just introduced their (Cheesy-!) Dodge Caravan and Plymouth Voyager cars in 1982, and Ford wanted to bring to market a minivan. The "crash" Aerostar program resulted. The Aerostar minivan was a Ranger truck frame converted to a unibody, and then with a box body added. It was Ranger based, and Ford initially released the Aerostar with Ranger engines : (can you believe it: the Pinto's 2.3 liter four] the 2.8 liter Cologne German V6.

Later, Ford caught common sense and built the Aerostar with an engine known as a "vulcan", or their corporate 150 horsepower Taurus engine. It is cheap to produce with it's stamped steel rocker arms.

Look on Edmunds.com, or on KBB.com-they'll tell you about Aerostars! These were probably the best American built minivans in 1997. From what I've read about them, and from owning one for four years, I can tell you to replace the radiator and all the hoses immediately.

After that? If you change your oil, your coolant, and your brake fluid every year...you probably won't spend a cent or a Euro on your Aerostar [they were sold in Europe]. These cars are so bulletproof it is almost annoying~

N!

[berettafan]

the road system and driving conditions play a huge role in what gets built.

as for quality i don't know wtf is wrong with 'murcan co's.

[FrayAdjacent911]

I think it's culture. There's a lot more public transportation in most European countries. Cities are also smaller (tighter, smaller streets and such) due to having been built LONG before the automobile was common.

Gasoline is also taxed more, so comparitively, gas is CHEAP here. These factors have people over there leaning toward smaller more efficient vehicles.

I would also guess that Europeans are not like Americans when it comes to the 'appliance' frame of mind. A car to many Americans is an appliance. There are many of us that treat them that way - never washing them, barely keeping the interior clean, and almost completely ignoring maintenance.

Normy, my dad is still running a 1988 Ford Aerostar. I know it's got a V6. It looks like ass, the bumpers are both smashed up (they crack easily when they're old, no serious collision damage), the AC doesn't work, the radio is flaky as hell... but it fires up every time, and pulls strong!

[Mule]

Originally Posted by berettafan

the road system and driving conditions play a huge role in what gets built.

as for quality i don't know wtf is wrong with 'murcan co's.

100% correct. Very different highway system. As for quality, I've had some American junk. Ive had foreign junk as well. I've also had 2 American cars that went 200K with hardly any repairs.

[livi]

Still. I would think the 'racing/sports car - instinct' is a global 'trait' among men. Even with certain conditions making the typical car one or the other way - I am surprised there are no sports car manufacturers in the US historically.

Take Italy for example. Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani Zonda..England, Aston Martin, Lotus, Morgan

Heck, even small Sweden has a supercar.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by livi

Still. I would think the 'racing/sports car - instinct' is a global 'trait' among men. Even with certain conditions making the typical car one or the other way - I am surprised there are no sports car manufacturers in the US historically.

Take Italy for example. Ferrari, Lamborghini, Pagani Zonda..England, Aston Martin, Lotus, Morgan

Heck, even small Sweden has a supercar.

I sense that you're going to go much deeper culturally in this thread than just the difference between American and European attitudes toward car ownership.

Formula One racing and European Football (soccer) fascinates me. The near xenophobic attitudes that come out - i.e. flag waving nationalism contingent on manufacturer or what team represents what country, is something you don't find here in the U.S. What we are instead is a big ol' sordid melting pot who really have no interest in nationalistic pride unless:

1) It's the Olympics.
2) We're attacked and consequently, go to war.

[john70t]

Perhaps America likes to blend the distinctions too much: for example a luxury truck built for toeing and speed, and style etc...
It was also my impression that Europe seems to focus on small, lightweight daily drivers which get good milage. What do the car commercials seem to empathize most over there?

[livi]

dd, do you mean that the fact that Europe is a continent divided in many small countries creates a climate of entrepreneur 'racing' against each other ? A regional pride that stimulates a patriotic urge to beat the neighbor.

Certainly fits in Italy. With the tractor manufacturer Signore Lamborghini having a fit from his Ferrari not working properly. Feeling short changed by the Ferrari factory he drives home in anger, determined to build a better sports car. Or so the legend has it at least. Ferdinand Porsche had a hard time too during and after the war, having to hide out in the bushes in an old shed developing the embryo for the 356.

Maybe it has simply been up to a handful of ingenious men that just happened to live in Europe ?

OK, now I have lost track of my own thread. Where were I ?

[Normy]

Now..the Jetta mit VR6-

I bought the car, and immediately the significant other took a shining to it. This car, with its' 175 horsepower V6 engine was nothing less than a hooligan. I wanted a Volkswagen [since I drive a 928 daily], and I wanted it with a big engine. 944? Sure, but they are old and this is a WORK car, so it needs to be 100% reliable. I figured that a '97 Jetta would be reliable enought. Any sort of 944 probably wouldn't. Also, the Jetta is front-wheel drive, and FWD goes through snow or icy roads like a snowmobile. On top of it all...my dad had a '95 Jetta four cylinder that was what my family semi-affectionately calls the "rock". My dad sold this car this spring with 190,000 miles...and the only things that have ever been replaced are bulbs!

NOT so with my particular Jetta! Day one at my new company: after buying the Jetta, and driving it for a month in Fort Lauderdale, I drove it up to Mephis for my training for my new job. Hello? It acheived 28 miles per gallon on the way up. Great. But December 4th 2006 was 17 degrees fahrenheit in Memphis. I drove about two blocks, and suddenly, an oil seal let loose on the car's oil cooler. I was about one mile away when the oil light came on, and the warning buzzer started to scream...

-These people are going to pay me...probably nearly 8 figures by the time I am done with them. But they can fire me without union protection my first year. And since this is a company that paints:

"The World On Time"

On the side of all their airplanes, trucks, and cars...it occured to me that they probably didn't appreciate tardiness. Especially on the first day.

Ok- I had a decision to make. I'm an airline pilot. Flying an airplane is like driveing a car-the reason we are paid so much is because we have a LOT of money in our hands. Turn around and come back to land when a light turns on? If it is significant, then fine. But is it "on the edge"? Listen: a 727 costs $5000 per hour to operate. If we skip a landing and come back, or go and land somewhere else...we can easily cost the company more than the cost of my 928: $10,600.

Well, Fedex isn't going to go bankrupt if I can't make my first day of work. But they probably won't keep me employed either- they have 20,000 pilot resumes on file, and they have in the recent past turned down shuttle astronauts.

So, when I pulled my V6 Jetta over and looked at the oil pouring out of the front end of the engine, I was a bit perplexed. I was also presented with a question:

Captain Normy: Do you drive back to the crashpad and hope you meet your pad-mate, and he can give you a ride...OR: Do you sit here in the neighborhood and call a cab...and eventually make it to class late?

I made my decision: I went for it. I drove the Jetta back to the crashpad with NO oil pressure! Volkswagens are average cars in my opinion, but they are built like the proverbial third stone south of Hell [Put a Volkswagen on a lift sometime, and put a Honda up on a lift next to it; the thickness of the metal on the suspension alone will cause you to buy your kids Volkswagens for the rest of your life!] survived being driven about a mile and a half with NO~ oil pressure, and no damage was done in this short drive. My crashpad mate, Pete Lenio, whom I walked in on the previous night ["Hi, how you doing...I'm Norm by the way] Was happy to give me a ride to my first day at work. Pete is one of the nicest people I've ever met. Well, I called the local VW dealership, and they were more than happy to rape me again and again. If the service manager wasn't wearing a wedding ring, I'd have wondered if he was gay. They towed the car from the place I was staying and did a proper repair.

Well, the Jetta needed about $600 in repairs. If this had occured at home, I could have certainly fixed it myself, since I have a garage and plenty of tools and TIME when I'm home. But this was in Memfrica, I didn't have my tools with me, and I don't know anything about the local shops.

Well, they fixed the oil leak, and it didn't hurt the engine. ONE week later, I was sitting in Memphis traffic, talking to the significant other..when I heard a sudden "PSHHHHHHT" and steam came from all the vents. I had to pull over. Guess what? The f*cking French heater core EXPLODED. I had to pull over, and for the second time ever...my car was towed to the dealer.

$400 later...My rear end is as sore as ever. And NOW I have no heat.

Great. I'm from Florida. I'm built like a twig, and if it gets into the low '70's I'm fixing to build a fire. Guess where they sent me for IOE: Des Moins, Iowa.

[I suppose it probably could have been worse, but at the time...February...I had to climb 3 foot tall snow banks to walk across the street to a sub shop. I used several dozen of the profanities I learned in second grade during that trip-]

That Jetta wasn't done f*cking with me. Guess what: I drove it out of that shop, and the car promptly overheated. I pulled over on the side of the road on I-240 just south of Poplar and called the [harried...] service manager.

"Way-ell...juss get it bayk here anyway that you can. If if stops...call me bayk an' a'hlll come n geyt you"

I "milked" the car back to the VW dealer, and got it there just before they closed for the day. For what it is worth, Gosset Volkswagen, the worst VW dealer in the world...gave me a new 2007 Jetta loaner car for two days and didn't charge me a cent.

Yeah, great deal. A new Jetta for the weekend, but they needed $1100 to replace the complex dual engine cooling fan on the VR6 Jetta! Ouch. I'm pretty sure that Gosset Volkswagen destroyed the huge relay next to the coolant tank by allowing coolant to cover it, but how am I going to prove that? I'm 1000 miles away from home, am new at my company...and they know it. In the end I've spent $2200 on this car at this dealership since I bought it in Florida.

-I am NOT impressed!

Skip American cars. They are definitely junk. And for sure- skip cheap Volkswagens. They sell their cars upmarket, when in fact a Hyundai is built with probably TWICE the quality.

N!

[dd74]

Originally Posted by livi

dd, do you mean that the fact that Europe is a continent divided in many small countries creates a climate of entrepreneur 'racing' against each other ? A regional pride that stimulates a patriotic urge to beat the neighbor.

Certainly fits in Italy. With the tractor manufacturer Signore Lamborghini having a fit from his Ferrari not working properly. Feeling short changed by the Ferrari factory he drives home in anger, determined to build a better sports car. Or so the legend has it at least. Ferdinand Porsche had a hard time too during and after the war, having to hide out in the bushes in an old shed developing the embryo for the 356.

Maybe it has simply been up to a handful of ingenious men that just happened to live in Europe ?

Yes, that's what I mean. It's nationalistic pride. At least that's how I see it. Here, there is none except for bragging rites in club atmospheres or at race tracks.

BTW: didn't Enzo Ferrari leave Alfa Romeo for the same reasons you describe above?

[livi]

Donīt know about Alfa Romeo - I even forgot to mention it in my above listing. Perhaps because I never really liked them, just as I always had a problem with BMW. Pure personal nonsense of course.

The only strange thing is that Americans in most fields are in the frontier, not least scientifically and technically. Designing and building fantastic creations in every branch. Just not sports cars. Go figure.

BTW, didnīt Enzo die rather young ? Urging his father to name the super car after him.

[masraum]

I think that there are a couple of factors that favored huge cars in the US and smaller or more efficient cars in Eu.

Europe is relatively small and because of mountains and such, relatively difficult to go any great distance (I'm talking about way back in the day). The US is pretty darn big with lots of wide open space.

The US came out of the world wars pretty well economically from what I remember which favors excess. I believe much of Europe suffered economically following the WWs.

I believe that the wide open spaces combined with the healthy economy after the wars favored excess, big powerful cars that represented the big powerful country. I think that the opposite is true of Eu.

But I'm no great historian, no expert on any of this, and didn't stay at a holiday inn last night.

[Tobra]

Difference between American and European cars to me is that I can't think of any American cars I would seriously consider buying, maybe a truck if I needed one. Can think of a few Euro rides I would like.

Don't know why they can't seem to get fast and good handling right, maybe because they start with a car fast in a straight line and try to make it handle. How it looks, or rather the image it projects, is more important than how it drives for a lot of American cars. It seems that way to me, but my daily driver is a Honda, so I really have no business commenting, which has never stopped me in the past either...

[dd74]

I once heard that at the turn of the 20th Century, there were nearly as many American car companies as there were Dot.com companies in the 1990s to 2000. So it wasn't from a lack of ingenuity that we have only three car companies producing basically the same old thing.