Electric Dragsters

[snowman]

Same batteries we worked on back then. Still a problem. Li-ion might be great for an electric drill, but GM will have some really big problems with them in the Tesla. Something about the quantity of batteries in series, uniform charging, discharging, problems that are NOT solved and may never be (at a cost that makes it practical), then there is the pollution and energy use to produce them, then the disposal (a problem that will never be solved as long as there are corrupt people in the world). Then theres the basic safety problem. NO one will ever be able to safely work on an auto with a 300 plus volt bomb on board. Accidents will expose first responders to death threatening exposure of high voltage, explosions, toxic stew that will ultimately be unacceptable. The same for technicians that work on the cars. ONe misstep and you lose your hand, arm or life. Just not enough money to pay for the people who survive working on these things.

The latest
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB119335110403372123-lMyQjAxMDE3OTIzOTMyNTkxWj.html Electrics have even worse problems.

[Hugh R]

One of my neighbors is principal engineer in a company that is making flywheel technology uninteruptible power supply devices. I don't remember the specifics, but from when the power is shut off, the UPS flywheel will power a big computer server for like 48 hours. All on a flywheel spinning away in a vacuum. I remember reading about this as conceptual stuff in Scientific American over 30 years ago.

[snowman]

The key to flywheels is the magnetic bearing. I don't think it has been perfected yet, but they do use the flywheel on some public transport systems.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by snowman

The latest
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB119335110403372123-lMyQjAxMDE3OTIzOTMyNTkxWj.html Electrics have even worse problems.

Toyota's Prius, which gets a leading 46 mpg combined but no longer qualifies for the tax credit, costs over $7,000 more than the auto maker's compact Corolla. It would take nearly 18 years to recoup the premium, or more than twice the time you might expect to own it.

People seem to be happy with it though, feel like they are doing something I guess.

[snowman]

The only reason people bought Toyotas Prius is to use the car pool lane. The WSJ reported a study that concluded people thought their time was well worth the extra cost. As to mileage I remember VW diesel rabbits got over 50mpg back in the late 70's. Put a modern diesel of similar power of the hybrid power plant in a Prius and I suspect you will still get over 50mph.

[kach22i]

UPDATE: 12/31/2007

ELECTRIC-POWERED DRAGSTER SETS NEW WORLD SPEED RECORD
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9630&page=30

Altairnano Batteries Power Electric Vehicle to National Hot Rod Association World Speed Record for Electric Dragsters: Quarter Mile in 8.10 Seconds at 153.6 mph

Tucson, AZ -- December 17, 2007 -- Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. a leading manufacturer of safe, high-performance lithium-titanate battery pack products and energy storage products announced today that Dennis "Kilowatt" Berube has set the National Hot Rod Association's (NHRA) Super Pro class world speed record for electric dragsters driving an electric vehicle powered by Altairnano battery packs.

Powered by Altairnano's lithium-titanate battery packs, Berube's electric dragster, named the Current Eliminator V, accelerated to a speed of 153.6 mph at the Speedworld Motorplex drag strip on Saturday, December 15, covering a quarter-mile in 8.10 seconds, setting a new electric dragster world speed record. Dennis Berube started his first day at the track with the Altairnano battery pack and with limited time, on a single day, ran times of 10.04, 8.84, 8.40, 8.23 and finally a 8.10 second run - Very significant improvement with three of these times breaking his old record of 8.801 seconds.

"We are truly thrilled for Dennis," said Dr. Alan Gotcher, President and CEO of Altair Nanotechnologies, "Not only is it a great milestone for Dennis, but it is a great milestone for the alternative energy transportation industry," Dr. Gotcher continued, "People think of electric vehicles as golf carts, but as Dennis's new world record shows, electric vehicles are extremely powerful and capable of impressive speeds."

[beepbeep]

What about producing hydrogen by hydro plant and then using in-car fuel cells to convert it to electricity?

Density problem is being worked on with metal-swamp technology.

[Wrecked944]

Originally Posted by Aurel

When was that, in 1930? LOL . I think you are the joke, Snowman. Battery technology has made large improvements since you retired... I can teach you about modern Li-ion batteries any time of the day. Ever heard about Bellcore? I was there. Valence? They got some of my patents. Have you read about Altair Nano recently? I work with them. Matter of fact, their nanosafe Li-ion battery is based on a paper I wrote in 2004. How many papers have you written on battery technology? Seriously, what do you know about batteries?

Aurel

[snowman]

Enough to not buy a car powered by one of them. My opinion might change if something new is invented. The latest info I have if directly from one of the major Jap/American company's making hybrids, the safety and environmental problems have not been solved as of 12-07. The major problems are still EXACTLY the same ones we had 30 years ago, imagine that! Newer unforeseen problems remain in the service area. Then theres the bottom lines:
1. Cost is higher than gas or diesel ICE
2. Emissions are not less for hybrids or electrics
3. New environmental hazards that are far worse than anything we have ever experienced will result from large scale use of batteries. There is no such thing as 100% recycling and prober handling of toxic battery waste. Batteries from computers are already causing major recycling headaches. Cars will cause far worse problems. Chernobyl will look like a garden of eden when compared to what Ni Metal Hydride batteries can do to the environment. Lead acid batteries have not caused serious problems because lead is not a hazard, unless you eat it. The exotic batteries all have extremely toxic materials in them, their waste and the waste produced in their production will poison the world if they are widely used in cars.

[john70t]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowjob

[snowman]

Just why would a big company get out of a supposedly profitable business?
1. It will never be profitable
2. Liability for gross pollution caused by the batteries

Here is an interesting read
http://onemansblog.com/2007/03/27/prius-outdoes-hummer-in-environmental-damage/

another interesting read. Note the damage is from a single flashlight battery. Imagine a very powerful, like a box of TNT powerful battery going off in your back seat.
http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=132932&st=0&p=2223457&#entry2223457
THe same kind of battery almost burned down an aircraft back in 1974 and severely hurt an engineer at his desk when one exploded. ANY battery with extreme energy density is a potential bomb.
My guess is that a single cell had a microscopic leak, allowing moisture to enter the cell. Li reacts with moisture, very violently, ka boom. Hermetic sealing was a problem 30 years ago, and on a production basis, certainly is today. Even "good" quality batteries do this, in fact poor quality Li batteries would not likely exit the factory without failing, violently.

Bigger problems are practical. First responders do not want to be zapped with 300 to 600 VDC trying to save a person trapped in a car. Technicians cannot recognize the true danger of handling lethal voltages without many being fried. Some already have been, loosing hands, and lives to electric cars. Hydrogen cars can have invisible flames, so hot that they can burn a hole thru steel in a second. First responders are told to wave brooms around to see if it catches on fire before coming close to a car that can incinerate them or electrocute them. Hybrids must have cones placed around them to prevent people from coming withing 5 feet of them when serviced! Special coolants (each has a differen't color) are required for each component of the car. Check out the disposal procedures, the clean up precautions for handling NIMH batteries for first responders. Not exactly like the MDS for computer batteries. The toxic material is so bad that NO contact is permitted for a first responder. If contact happens, extreme measures are required to protect the individual. First responders are well educated, and they know about these hazards. Do you want to be in a car, a toxic waste bomb, electrocution hazard, trapped, waiting for a first responder who wants to run the other way?
Yeh Right, not in this real world.

If GM wanted to kill the competition it would have held the patents and charged very high fees to license it. Leaving GM the sole source for the ultimate EV system. It sold a losing investment for whatever it could get. The oil company's need something to seem green, even if it looses money, so they bought it.



No other reasons make any sense.

Invest wisely-- avoid companys that make over token investments in electric or so called alternate energy cars. Invest in any company that pegs its future on Diesel ICE power plants. Its going to be a winner.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Brushless DC electrics are insane. Problem is in energy storage, the run times are awful at those output levels.

I was stunned that they were that much faster. I used to race electric dirt buggies (pre brushless) and gas was always considerably faster.

[snowman]

An electric motor will always beat any ICE power plant. No question there. Total torque off the line. Only problem is the battery. Can't hack it for more than a few seconds, but it will always beat anything else in the quarter mile.

I once toyed with the idea of using TNT and an MHD generator to power an electric dragster. Problem is that nitro methane or just plain gas has more energy density than needed to beat the TNT powered machine. Damn ICE power plant is very hard to beat!!! ( but I bet the TNT one would be much cooler, as in rad or bitc..en).