War on Children

[mjshira]

Originally Posted by JCF

I find it interesting that "conservatives" get so worked up about wasting money on our own citizens, our children.
Not all who are poor are so because they don't try.
Some have bad luck.
Some are just not smart.
Not all have a race car to sell to make up the difference.

Why is it it is so hard to swallow the idea of OUR government wasting money (granted that is what it does best) on helping the losers among st us yet the idea of a trillion $'s being thrown into a desert , to help people who clearly don't want our help (now they are even buying their weapons from China) is a wise investment ?

I just don't get it .

I am not sure, but you probably feel guilty to some degree that you are more fortunate or that you are not personally doing more for those that are less fortunate.

Here is the deal, taking money from one group to give it to another group, beyond a safety net, is morally wrong. Just as a parent not caring for a child is wrong.

So spending money from people on one side, to 'help' others on the other side, doesn't do anything to solve the problem. All it does is make the problem worse because then the root cause of the problem never gets addressed.

In my view, it is a hard, harsh world. And we each have to make the most of the skills, gifts and opportunities that come to us or that we can earn or reach for. Creating equality of result, will in the end, do way more harm to the Little people than it will to those with resources or whom you view as having a better chance for success.

Our founders had it right, the power to tax, is the power to destroy.

[legion]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

just as long as any reference to the War in Iraq is relabeld "The War on our Children's Wallets." more evidence of the outright selfish nature and 5-minute view point that pervades our country today.

you're AOK burning, BURNING $500 billion in Iraq because it doesn't effect you now. what's your Big Plan for paying the Chinese back on their loans?

the neocon hypocrisy must be reconciled.

I don't think you have any handle on the economic consequences of NOT fighting this war.

[mjshira]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

just as long as any reference to the War in Iraq is relabeld "The War on our Children's Wallets." more evidence of the outright selfish nature and 5-minute view point that pervades our country today.

you're AOK burning, BURNING $500 billion in Iraq because it doesn't effect you now. what's your Big Plan for paying the Chinese back on their loans?

the neocon hypocrisy must be reconciled.

I agree with you, the money being spent on Iraq based on debt obligations to other nations is crazy.

But spending more money on gov't programs that have not changed the issues they were created to address, is equally crazy.

We need less spending across the board.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by legion

I don't think you have any handle on the economic consequences of NOT fighting this war.

there aren't enough rolleyes in the world for this statement. here's a start.:rol leyes:

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by JCF

I find it interesting that "conservatives" get so worked up about wasting money on our own citizens, our children.
Not all who are poor are so because they don't try.
Some have bad luck.
Some are just not smart.
Not all have a race car to sell to make up the difference.

Why is it it is so hard to swallow the idea of OUR government wasting money (granted that is what it does best) on helping the losers amongst us yet the idea of a trillion $'s being thrown into a desert , to help people who clearly don't want our help (now they are even buying their weapons from China) is a wise investment ?

I just don't get it .

John...all I can say is that we're not that far apart here. But "for the children"?

"Vote yes for kids"???

It's not about the "kids"....If only it was.

[74-911]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

When my Grandmother developed cancer (she has since passed) I took a lot of time off of work to help her, I also made sure that she was never short of any money (she did save, but I still helped, even though she didn't like it) My Grandmother who was given 6 weeks , made it a year & a half, she passed at her home, with family at her side, not with the government taking care of her, not alone, we were there when she left us. I'm still making up for what it cost me to do that, and I had just bought all new race gear, which is now out dated (I had my Great Aunt pass in June) neither of whom wanted me racing any more, both needed me so I did the right thing, cancled my race seasons and spent the time with them. When it comes to our elderly, I'm far more into helping them, as they are the ones who raised, made us who we are. Children, well, that is what their parents are for. I didn't want the Government taking care of my Grandmother, don't want them taking care of my Mother and when I ge old, I don't want them taking care of me We should all be responsable for those who brought us into this world. I have no regrets for what I gave up to help/ bewith my Grandmother & favorite Aunt and if I had to sell all my Porsches to take care of my elderly Mother, I wouldn't hesitate.

BTW, 2 very good friends are each spending over $5K to make sure their mothers' are taken care of, their money, not the government's

It would be a wonderful world if everyone was able to do as you have done and it is truly admirable. Unfortunately most people just do not and will never have the resources to do it. The large majority of working class people in this country don't even gross $5K a month, much less have it available and they certainly can't take the time off from work on any long term basis.
And I don't think cancelling their racing season or selling all their Porsches to help out even comes into the picture.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by JCF

I find it interesting that "conservatives" get so worked up about wasting money on our own citizens, our children.
Not all who are poor are so because they don't try.
Some have bad luck.
Some are just not smart.
Not all have a race car to sell to make up the difference.

Why is it it is so hard to swallow the idea of OUR government wasting money (granted that is what it does best) on helping the losers amongst us yet the idea of a trillion $'s being thrown into a desert , to help people who clearly don't want our help (now they are even buying their weapons from China) is a wise investment ?

I just don't get it .

They get a free education, they choose not to take advantage of it. To be poor in America is a choice, you make poor choices, that is how you end up. On the Desert, try talking to some people who have been there, they will enlighten you to why the money isn't being thrown away.

And I didn't have to sell one of my race cars, but the reason I own them, and could take the time to help was simple, I went to school, and when the time came, I worked 2 jobs to go & pay for college, I made some bad choices in my life, but I made good choices too and now those have paid off, nother anyone else can't do, they just choose not too
If you can't feed em, don't breed em!!!

[mjshira]

here is a thought, how is it that everywhere we look on TV these days all we hear about is list victim group or that one. and then we hear how this group, or this groups ancestry, has not fault in its present situation, and then we hear how this group 'needs' XY or Z program.

there are too groups pulling the country apart financially, the military industrial complex and its lobby, and the vicitms groups and theirs. eventually, no matter how great our nation is, something will give.

so there is plenty of fault on both sides, the question is, what are we going to do about it? bashing each other won't solve a thing...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by mjshira

I agree with you, the money being spent on Iraq based on debt obligations to other nations is crazy.

But spending more money on gov't programs that have not changed the issues they were created to address, is equally crazy.

We need less spending across the board.

James, I completely agree with you on the cycle-thing. as a conservative Democrat, I see idiot liberal Dem's just throwing money at the end of any given cycle.

Put some $ at the start and cycles can be broken.

On the kids issue, it's more cost-effective to be in a preventive mode rather than reactive. It also treats kids as assets, not as expenses. Put your money in assets and watch it grow rather than throw it away on expenses.

[mjshira]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

J

On the kids issue, it's more cost-effective to be in a preventive mode rather than reactive. It also treats kids as assets, not as expenses. Put your money in assets and watch it grow rather than throw it away on expenses.

but that has NEVER worked. people make decisions, decisions have consequences.

It is not that I personally don't have pitty for those less fortunate, I do. It is that no gov't program has or will ever be as powerful as an individual or group of individuals who take responsibility for themselves.

We are throwing good money after bad in gov't, be it on the weapons we don't need more of, or on social programs that are socialist in nature.

[mjshira]

just one more point, those that claim to represent 'little people' somehow never represent those folks in a manner that results in those people moving past their station or problem.

If you look at Rev Jackson or Sharpton, they are victim shopping and then selling those folks a line that sounds something like 'its not your fault, it is the fault of..' fill in the blank.

If they really cared about those they represent they would empower them by telling them they can aspire to greatness and to be more and then to also remind them that regardless of how they got here, they are in the greatest nation on earth. A place that regardless of the faults we all lament, is still the best place to dream and then live the dream.

but you can't do that if you are too busy looking for fault in others or inspecting your navel...

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

James, I completely agree with you on the cycle-thing. as a conservative Democrat, I see idiot liberal Dem's just throwing money at the end of any given cycle.

Put some $ at the start and cycles can be broken.

On the kids issue, it's more cost-effective to be in a preventive mode rather than reactive. It also treats kids as assets, not as expenses. Put your money in assets and watch it grow rather than throw it away on expenses.

Now, that is the wisest comment in this thread, the couple who live across the street have a 4 year old, they started a college fund when she 1st got pregnant, they have been looking at preschools and later, planning their budget for it. The main reason they moved into this area is because of the high quality schools. When I was young, and my father's retirement check & our family assets were seized/frozen by the Government (he was a union agent when he retired, hell, he was with that union since he after he finished W.W.II) we did without so I could go to a good school. You have to be willing to sacrifice if you have children to raise.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by mjshira

but that has NEVER worked. people make decisions, decisions have consequences.

It is not that I personally don't have pitty for those less fortunate, I do. It is that no gov't program has or will ever be as powerful as an individual or group of individuals who take responsibility for themselves.

We are throwing good money after bad in gov't, be it on the weapons we don't need more of, or on social programs that are socialist in nature.

You've hit upon EXACTLY! People make decisions. That's at the heart of good social engineering. How do you get people to make good decisions? How do you get them to understand the consequences of their decisions, consequences 1 day from the moment they make the decision, consequences 10 years from the moment they put a decision in motion.

When you were 13, did you have the same decision making skills as a kid in ghetto? if you did well in school at 13, what was the result? Proud parents or getting beat-up after school. When you were 13, what opportunities COULD you imagine, that perhaps parents and parent-piers were telling you about. Does a poor kid in the inner city or deep south rural have the same imagination, the same reinforcement mechanisms at home?

The day any 13-year-old kid can equally dream is the day poverty and ignorance start to decrease. Will they ever disappear? No. But at some point, kids need a setting in which they LEARN how to make good decisions that will effect the rest of their lives.

That's breaking a cycle. When you invest in whatever infrastructure is necessary to create this setting, you'll start to see real social and economic dividends 15 to 20 years down the road.

At the end of the day, it's about ROI. There is no ROI with "fixing" adults by throwing money at their problems. There is tremendous ROI in giving kids the ability to see a future where discipline, responsibility, self-esteem are part of their lives. There is ROI in giving kids the tools to make good decisions.

Who's going to give them these tools? Church, community groups, schools. bad parents must be REMOVED from the equation, as they are the leading cause in continuing the cycle. How can a kid make a good decision when his parents continually make bad ones?

[mjshira]

You can't make people make good decisions... come on, apply some common sense here. that logic is as bad as the logic that led the an unplanned war. we need a system with a reasonable level of protection for poor people, we don't need a system that insures that a result happens.

what you really saying is that there are 'some people' that 'other people' should make decisions for.

I thank God everyday for the freedom to make the decisions I make. I wouldn't want to take that freedom from anyone else. Be it to force them to believe in the God I do, or pay taxes to a system that they don't support.

Have you not noticed what is becoming of this nation of ours? We are a becoming a country run by minority interests (I don't mean race).

So while I appreciate we share some common views, I don't think I've explained myself clearly enough because I don't agree with the program and its associated cost.

[mjshira]

and parents are who should teach good decisions, not teachers and gov't. it is the parents that are absent that are causing a lot of the problems we are facing.

[JCF]

Originally Posted by mjshira

I am not sure, but you probably feel guilty to some degree that you are more fortunate or that you are not personally doing more for those that are less fortunate.



.

Gee , thanks for clearing that up - that course you took in psychology is finally paying off.

What I am saying is that given we WILL BE TAXED - and seems to me my taxes have been going up lo these past 7 years as they went up the 8 before - If there was a box on the form that gave me the option of ;
1) my money being wasted on children.
2.) being wasted on fighting endless wars for unclear ends.

I would choose the first.
Maybe YOU need to feel a little more guilty.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

oh my, I fear you've completely missed my point.

unless you think some people are genetically inferior and can't make good decisions, you must accept that people LEARN to make good decisions. this patterned after role models. If you have a bad role model, when you are learning to make decisions from a cognitive development point of view, you will make bad decisions.

if you have a good role model, you will make good decisions. yes, it's that simple. the human brain, for all it's complexity, is great at mimicking more than anything else.

Create the scenario where kids can mimic good decisions and they will.

If you don't, you are GUARANTEED bad kids.

[JCF]

Originally Posted by mjshira

Our founders had it right, the power to tax, is the power to destroy.

Our founders also said that a society is best judged on how it treats its poor and weak.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by mjshira

and parents are who should teach good decisions, not teachers and gov't. it is the parents that are absent that are causing a lot of the problems we are facing.

OK, now you are REALLY missing my point. Yes, parents SHOULD teach good decisionmaking skills. But this is the ESSENCE of a cycle. If a parent makes bad decisions because their parents made bad decisions, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE GOOD DECISIONS. therefore, they can't teach good decision making skills. In this scenario, you have to substitute Church, Community and/or Schools for parents to break the cycle.

I'm really sorry for being so unclear. I've definitely got to more time into responses.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by JCF

If there was a box on the form that gave me the option of ;
1) my money being wasted on children.
2.) being wasted on fighting endless wars for unclear ends.

I would choose the first.
Maybe YOU need to feel a little more guilty.

I wouldn't. Whether you agree with nat. security decisions of any president or Congress, it is something only the government can do. People can and should be responsible for their own kids and health insurance. I'd rather light my tax money on fire than give it to people who won't take responsibility for their own decisions. When that money is spent on nat. security, there is at least some outside chance of it paying off. No such chance in redistributing wealth. Gov't. money has never ever solved anything related to poverty and never will.