Health Care in the US

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by jyl

Tobra, what you're saying doesn't actually work. Its not a substitute for actual health care.

Yes, if your bones are broken or you have been shot or cut or you are severely ill, you can go to an emergency room and be treated.

But if you are a lower-income, working-class person without insurance, who tries to be financially responsible, then you can only do this once or twice. The emergency room charges will break you - like, a month's living expenses per visit. So the ER really only works for the uninsured person who is already impoverished and/or and don't care about bills or paying. Your prescription (just go to the ER for free care) is one way that working-class people end up going bankrupt.

But forget the financial aspect - does it make any sense for an uninsured person to have to go to an emergency room for medical care? Absolutely not.

First, emergency rooms are for emergency care. Try walking into your local ER and asking for your annual physical, for an OB/GYN exam, for preventative care, or for continuing care of a chronic illness. Just try it. Doesn't work. So people who depend on ERs don't get that kind of preventative and ongoing care. They get sicker and sicker, and when they show up at the ER they are much worse off than if they had normal healthcare.

Second, the emergency room is the worst place for our healthcare system to treat patients. It is very expensive to deliver care there, especially for people who can't pay. Why do you think so many urban ERs are being forced to close? The next time you are in, say, an auto accident, better hope the nearest ERs haven't gone bankrupt and they don't have to drive you for 40 minutes to one that is open.

Third, the emergency room is a bad place for patients to go, unless they actually have emergencies. Can you imagine taking your little child to a big-city ER. Sitting there for hours among gunshot cases, bloody accident victims, freaky drug overdoses, etc? You call that decent health care?

Fourth, the ER will give you emergency care. What happens after you are discharged, but need on-going medication, therapy, outpatient care, etc? ERs don't do that. No insurance to cover your prescription? You get to go without, until you get sick enough, then you end up back in the ER.

People who say "everyone in the US has free healthcare, just go to the ER" just aren't making any sense.

Stop making sense.

[snowman]

Health care is health care. We have it in the US.

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

..
And if you think your lack of nuclear power generation is totally the fault of the left in America, then you are still drinking the rightwings koolaid. Try doing some research as to how France achieved this. It had little to do with right or left polictical claptrap.

You obviously haven't been "home" very much yourself, nor are you involved in the legislative aspect of nuclear power generation. (Turns out I'm not either, but my sister regularly testifies at state and national committees - what does she know?) The enviromentalists are solely responsible for the lack of nuclear power generation in this country. But after all, you know everything about everything and "get out" all the time, right?

[MFAFF]

Snowman,

Re your comment about 'Follow the money'...its usually a very good guide, but in this case its doesn't work as well.

If you were to in this case it bring you not necessarily to the US but to the private hospitals in the UK that offer a wide range of elective treatments for those who 'need' it. For example there are a large number of private clinics and hospitals centred around Harley Street here in London, who provide completely private health care.

Here the number of US citizens who come over from the US to recieve treatment would lead one believe that it was unavaliable or substandard in the US. Clearly this is not the case...but it offers aspects that are not possible in the US, perhaps discretion, perhaps they are here because a particular surgeon is 'better' than all the others...but to extrapolate from that snapshot is illogical.

That there are medical tourists in not in question, in both directions, but the reasons why need to be examined more closely.. for example there was a recent stroy here...of a middle aged lady who required a hip replacement... she was 'told' it would be 14 months before she could have her op...scandalous, see how rubbish the NHS is...etc etc...

Errr.. wrong... what was left to the very bottom of the story was that this lady was rather larger than average.. she weighed 18 stone.. she had diabetes and smoked like a chimmney... the docs really said... well.. in order to make you healthy enough to have the hip replacement and for it to be a longer term success we'll need to do the following.. weight loss to a reasonable weight for your height...monitor the diabetes so we know its under long term control and help you reduce or quit smoking...all in all a 14 month period to achieve that is reasonable.
(BTW the weight, diabetes and smoking only made the operation more difficult.. they did not preclude it at the time).

Oh no she when off to the US, had it done privately there and then...and after six months needs a revision becuase it hasn't worked correctly.

Now...which system provided the 'best' care...it all depends on your own view of what the best is... the US provided a quick service, giving the customer what she wanted quickly and professionally...

The UK system took a different view, one which put medical needs to the front. Yup she would have had 14 months of help ( and hell) trying to lose weight, quit smoking etc.. but the chances of the hip replacement being a long term success would have been increased. In addition there is a chance that her long term prospects would also have improved).

Neither can claim the other is 'wrong'.. they are different.

(As an aside a 97 year old lady who fell and broke her hip, needing replacement was operated on with-n 72 hours, so 'rationing' is not as 'obvious' as it would seem.)

Seriously folks... as I said before the US system does have advantages over others.. access and quality of hotel care are the primarly strengths, but in pure medical terms there is little clear water between the two approaches. Medics are all relatively well educated, hard working and competent people...whose abilities are on a similar level.

To pretend that US doctors are 'better' than anywhere else is disingenuous, certainly the ones I have mee who come over here to recieve additional training not readily avaliable in the US were very good, certainly peers to the UK ones, but not superior.

But as Snow stated... pays ya money, takes ya pick...

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by artplumber

You obviously haven't been "home" very much yourself, nor are you involved in the legislative aspect of nuclear power generation. (Turns out I'm not either, but my sister regularly testifies at state and national committees - what does she know?) The enviromentalists are solely responsible for the lack of nuclear power generation in this country. But after all, you know everything about everything and "get out" all the time, right?

Obviously I do get out more than you do. I see you still haven't researched how France was able to facilitate building enough nuclear power plants. And I see you still have the narrow-minded viewpoint "that if it wasn't for them thar' environmentalists, we all would have us a paradise here". You really need to expand your world-view. So far all you have accomplished is to illustrate you're clueless.

Before you expound on your great wisdom and understanding, you should engage your mind in some research before engaging your mouth.

The mistakes the US made in nuclear power plant construction were all made in the 50's and 60's. Most of the mistakes were made long before any environmentalists tried to stop any nuclear power plant construction.

If any of this is unfamiliar to you, try some study and research.
Works every time.

France isn't perfect, far from it. But they have, like many countries, managed to do some things extraordinarily well. We can learn from them, just as they can learn from us.

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Obviously I do get out more than you do. I see you still haven't researched how France was able to facilitate building enough nuclear power plants. And I see you still have the narrow-minded viewpoint "that if it wasn't for them thar' environmentalists, we all would have us a paradise here". You really need to expand your world-view. So far all you have accomplished is to illustrate you're clueless.

Before you expound on your great wisdom and understanding, you should engage your mind in some research before engaging your mouth.

The mistakes the US made in nuclear power plant construction were all made in the 50's and 60's. Most of the mistakes were made long before any environmentalists tried to stop any nuclear power plant construction.

If any of this is unfamiliar to you, try some study and research.
Works every time.

France isn't perfect, far from it. But they have, like many countries, managed to do some things extraordinarily well. We can learn from them, just as they can learn from us.

Far from it oh great wise and all-knowing one. The nuclear industry in the US suffered greatly from the Three Mile island release, as since then virtually no permits have been granted for nuc power generation. Since I was once interested in this technology and studied it, and still know individuals in the business of trying to not only get new plants permitted, but maintain the permits of current plants, I guess I don't know much because I don't agree with you. (Just an aside, my sister the person who testifies etc, is as leftie as they come, and freely decries those of her own political persuasion on this issue).

Oh, forgot to add, that I am licensed to use radioactive materials as well, and part of my education includes regulatory issues and historical perspectives. Jes sayin.

Ad hominem, grow up. BTW do you ever have a purely informational/opinion post that doesn't use an ad hominem attack?

[Tobra]

You guys have no idea what you are talking about at all

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by artplumber

Far from it oh great wise and all-knowing one. The nuclear industry in the US suffered greatly from the Three Mile island release, as since then virtually no permits have been granted for nuc power generation. Since I was once interested in this technology and studied it, and still know individuals in the business of trying to not only get new plants permitted, but maintain the permits of current plants, I guess I don't know much because I don't agree with you. (Just an aside, my sister the person who testifies etc, is as leftie as they come, and freely decries those of her own political persuasion on this issue).

Oh, forgot to add, that I am licensed to use radioactive materials as well, and part of my education includes regulatory issues and historical perspectives. Jes sayin.

Ad hominem, grow up. BTW do you ever have a purely informational/opinion post that doesn't use an ad hominem attack?

Since you claim such widespread knowledge, it is surprising that you still have not mentioned once the main mistake made in the US nuclear power industry. Your reciting of TMI and blockage by environmentalists, only underscores how lost you are. Hmmm, you better review that education again.

Maybe you did not use all the proper safeguards in handling that radioactive material? Incoherent thinking is a sign of radioactive poisoning!

My favorite bit:"Ad hominem, grow up. BTW do you ever have a purely informational/opinion post that doesn't use an ad hominem attack?"

This is really funny, since you have posted only unsupported opinions and started the insult trail. Just sayin....

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Since you claim such widespread knowledge, it is surprising that you still have not mentioned once the main mistake made in the US nuclear power industry. Your reciting of TMI and blockage by environmentalists, only underscores how lost you are. Hmmm, you better review that education again.

So your opinion of events (also unsupported I might add) is more important than others? What's your proof? The ability to cast aspersions about others' education? You think it's about politics/policy? Technology? Regulatory? Money? Have you dealt with the US public and the word "nuclear" in legislative and regulatory settings? The idea of "radioactivity" (what nuclear power "is" right now is fissionable material) that is hands down the biggest negative opinion driver of the technology. Want to claim anything else? There was already the issue of bombs and radioactivity/accidents prior to the island, but that crystallized the resistance. Make a case for something else instead of ad hominem attacks. Or can't you?

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Maybe you did not use all the proper safeguards in handling that radioactive material? Incoherent thinking is a sign of radioactive poisoning!

Hmmmm, another great piece of content.

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

My favorite bit:"Ad hominem, grow up. BTW do you ever have a purely informational/opinion post that doesn't use an ad hominem attack?"

This is really funny, since you have posted only unsupported opinions and started the insult trail. Just sayin....

You were the first to state that those who believe other than you "don't get out much", don't know much etc. I guess you don't read your own posts? Whatever, you remind me too much of Rodehard. Too bad you don't take the same path.

[snowman]

I studied to be a nuclear engineer. Took all the courses. Glad I didn't go that way because of the negative public opinion about nuclear energy. One of the very few things the French ever did right is to use nuclear energy. They are nearly energy independent because of that choice.

Here in the US we have abundant energy, of every single form. We are not making use of it because of some ignorant, biased, left wing zealots. Their true agenda is not energy, but control of the population, that simple.

[svandamme]

btw, no waiting lines in Belgium for any kind of medical procedure
in fact, we have surplus capacity, which the Dutchies take advantage off, the Dutch system is closer to the US system, with mostly privatized medicine, eg , insurance driven.. and they do have waiting lists... try 2 months waiting just to get an ultrasone echo...

[snowman]

We do not have waiting lists, unless your with a commie HMO insurance company. I have never had to wait over a few days for several elective surgeries. If its serious you go to the ER and they take care of it within one day, and thats without insurance.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by snowman

We do not have waiting lists, unless your with a commie HMO insurance company. I have never had to wait over a few days for several elective surgeries. If its serious you go to the ER and they take care of it within one day, and thats without insurance.

They don't have any waiting lists in France. We don't have anybody without health care, it is not rationed and you do not have to go to an emergency room for service. The doctor will visit you at home. So how is US health care better?

[snowman]

Read your own newspapers. How many died waiting in line? Whats the average wait for elective surgery?

To top it off your care is inferior to that in the US.

Remember, I know your statistics are LIES.

[Zef]

Originally Posted by Tobra

You guys have no idea what you are talking about at all

But you seem to do...

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by snowman

Read your own newspapers. How many died waiting in line? Whats the average wait for elective surgery?

To top it off your care is inferior to that in the US.

Remember, I know your statistics are LIES.

What a huge load of stinking BS.

Your claims need to be backed up with evidence or dismissed as simple outright lies. I’m willing to bet you cannot post any evidence to back up your claims. Typical with the crap you post.

For some facts try these sites:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

http://www.photius.com/rankings/child_well_being_in_rich_countries_2007.html

http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/population_below_poverty_line_2008_1.html

http://www.photius.com/rankings/population/infant_mortality_rate_total_2008_1.html

http://www.photius.com/rankings/population/life_expectancy_at_birth_total_2008_1.html

http://www.who.int/whosis/data/Search.jsp?indicators=[Indicator].Members

Please post your evidence to the contrary. You claim to “know” the statistics are false, where is the evidence? We are all waiting ……………………………….. Judging from the other claims you have made in other posts, I feel we will be waiting a long time for any facts from you (did you ever man-up and complete the deal you made with Joeska on the Dillion press?)

It must really “chap your hide” that someone is as good as or better than the US (OMG, especially France!), but facts are facts. You need to grow up, realize that there is a great big world out there, put your big-girl panties on and stop crying about being the best when it is just backed by outright lies.

[snowman]

Bs

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by snowman

Bs

Great comeback!
Good evidence you have posted.
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

[snowman]

FK french fries and the place named after them.

You cannot deny the fact that French wait in line for simple procedures, that some die in the Queue.

This does not happen in the US at a rate even close to that in France. The US HAS UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, the best in the world, it does not have universal insurance.

IN general that means that the scum of the earth have to eventually PAY for their care, if they earn any income. Unfortunately most do not.

[svandamme]

so Snowman, just a side question

how do you know what is in a French newspaper? do you speak French?


and a fyi as well
French Fries.. are not French, but Belgian, look it up