USA to pull out of NATO?

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I have a very accurate understanding of history and WWII. There is no evidence to support any position stated in this thread, other than Germany was defeated.

How and why Germany was defeated is an argument without context since the massive amounts of men and material expended to defeat the Axis is simply incredible. Focus on the Axis.

Then there is always the Japanese problem should we have not engaged them and they had opened a second front in Russia.

There is no question that the US bore the brunt of the entire spectrum of WWII, not just Europe but the war in the Atlantic, Africa, the Med, the Pacific and Asia. Did we have starring roles in each theater? No, of course not.

But without the US, our willingness to supply men and materials around the world the outcome of WWII is up for grabs.

No other country could have pulled it off. Sorry.

Seahawk, in all due respect, you are making an apples to oranges comparison. I made not claims that the US was not the dominate world wide power. I stated that in the European Theater the Russians did most of the actual battlefield work of defeating the Germans. Let's stick to that, OK? Can you provide evidence to the contrary?

I agree completely that no other country could have done what we did on a world wide scale in WW II. But that was not the item being discussed, was it?

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Single aircraft? What does that mean.?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II#Military_a ircraft_of_all_types

And the rest and refit comment is beyond the pale.

Why is it beyond the pale? All historical evidence points to this fact. Combat on the Eastern Front was magnitudes more vicious, encompassing, longer and more deadly than on the Western Front. German and Allied archives support this over and over again. For example, just take one battle, the Anaheim fiasco. The SS armor brigade was undergoing a rest and refit right where the British dropped the airborne troops. Note, that was on the Western Front. Dozens of more examples of this German Military policy can be found in the records.

It is only insulting if you insist that no one else is as brave, courageous and stalwart as Americans. History is full of examples that meet or exceed those qualities from others. How is giving the credit to the facts degrading to the US or the US military?

What is beyond the pale, is promoting an inaccurate picture of history. It is dishonest both intellectually and politically. Why would any American want to promote that?

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Seahawk, in all due respect, you are making an apples to oranges comparison. I made not claims that the US was not the dominate world wide power. I stated that in the European Theater the Russians did most of the actual battlefield work of defeating the Germans. Let's stick to that, OK? Can you provide evidence to the contrary?

I agree completely that no other country could have done what we did on a world wide scale in WW II. But that was not the item being discussed, was it?

If you want to discuss WWII, it is absolutely imperative that you include the whole tapestry.

For example, had the US not had to fight the world over, a second front could have been opened earlier, relieving much of the horror the Russians faced. In fact, a third front could have been opened.

I studied the Russian perspective in college and find their heroic struggle to be one of the most compelling in history. But any good student of history should look deeper, to the reasons why the Russians had to struggle...and those reasons are found both in the apple and the orange.

And I'll stick to whatever position I see fit. And the initial item being discussed was NATO, was it not?

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

If you want to discuss WWII, it is absolutely imperative that you include the whole tapestry.

For example, had the US not had to fight the world over, a second front could have been opened earlier, relieving much of the horror the Russians faced. In fact, a third front could have been opened.

I studied the Russian perspective in college and find their heroic struggle to be one of the most compelling in history. But any good student of history should look deeper, to the reasons why the Russians had to struggle...and those reasons are found both in the apple and the orange.

And I'll stick to whatever position I see fit. And the initial item being discussed was NATO, was it not?

Yes it was, and the reasons to stay in NATO or pull out. Historical fact is important in this discussion. BTW, much material has been released and make open to the public since you were in college, just saying.......

I noticed no one is trying to defend the WW I claim that we saved Europe. Fancy that!

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Yes it was, and the reasons to stay in NATO or pull out. Historical fact is important in this discussion. BTW, much material has been released and make open to the public since you were in college, just saying......

None which you seemed to have read, just saying.

This whole interweb thing works, too.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

None which you seemed to have read, just saying.

This whole interweb thing works, too.

Please, you are better than this. Childish insult, without a stated and supported claim is far beneath your normal posts. I will happily debate and discuss this data with you, but stop with the unsupported opinions and inuendo.

[Super_Dave_D]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Single aircraft type and model, i.e Me 109 or P 51. Not totals of all types. Look that up.

You speak of the Me 109 right?

[serge944]

Originally Posted by aap1966

the USA ended up rescuing Europe in WWI and WWII

Is that what you read in your 6th grade world history class?

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Please, you are better than this. Childish insult, without a stated and supported claim is far beneath your normal posts. I will happily debate and discuss this data with you, but stop with the unsupported opinions and inuendo.

Hey, Sparky, you were the one who started with the, "since...college, just saying" nonsense.

Which of course implied I haven't read any current, recently released info, which is simply not true, the dreaded innuendo. I'm on the fence whether such a statement is above or below your normal contributions.

And all my opinions are supported...'cause they're mine

If you want to get back on track, I am convinced that the Russians bore the brunt of the fighting in Europe, especially the civilians.

I am equally sure that without the Eastern Front no invasion of Europe from England would have been possible.

I am also of a mind to say that had Germany had a clue about Russia, had not, against the council of virtually all independent thinkers in the Germain Army, attacked Russian across a massive front, that Russian would have been happy to watch the war from the sidelines, would have cut an early deal to survive.

And, then, NATO wouldn't exist.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by Super_Dave_D

You speak of the Me 109 right?

No, I am not.

[tcar]

Originally Posted by BeyGon

So do you mean yes, get us out of the UN?

I think we should get out now.

We were talking about NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization).

NATO has nothing to do with the UN.

[NICKG]

Originally Posted by svandamme

freedom fries my @ss...how about Afghanistan??
It was after all a war started to take care of the Evil Doers that attacked your country.
Where Dubbya made bold statements of catching them, not resting till it's done

except he forgot the Ritaline, had a flairup of ADD, and buggered your armed forces by sending them to Iraq instead
And the French are dying there for a war you guys started... so i guess you might as well pull out of Nato... and then NATO can pull out of your wars?

unless YOU fought in the Western theater of WW2, you are NOT the one who has any I owe U's to collect... If you did, then good for you... you can talk like that, you did earn that right...

but i seriously doubt any of you fit's the description

i will tell my grand mother ...the one who lost here husband in belgium...that she should not be thanked by you...for her husbands blood. she will really appreciate it. you in the french section or dutch?...IT DOESN"T MATTER..eithr way you'd speak german if it wasn't for people like my grandfather...men who died to free your grandfather

[onewhippedpuppy]

Hey Paul (Seahawk), do they require any comprehension of military history to make Admiral? Just curious.

So RPKESQ, you must have a pretty strong academic background for your assertions? Years of study? Right?

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Hey, Sparky, you were the one who started with the, "since...college, just saying" nonsense.

Which of course implied I haven't read any current, recently released info, which is simply not true, the dreaded innuendo. I'm on the fence whether such a statement is above or below your normal contributions.

And all my opinions are supported...'cause they're mine

If you want to get back on track, I am convinced that the Russians bore the brunt of the fighting in Europe, especially the civilians.

I am equally sure that without the Eastern Front no invasion of Europe from England would have been possible.

I am also of a mind to say that had Germany had a clue about Russia, had not, against the council of virtually all independent thinkers in the Germain Army, attacked Russian across a massive front, that Russian would have been happy to watch the war from the sidelines, would have cut an early deal to survive.

And, then, NATO wouldn't exist.

Well thanks for being civil again and admitting my statements are factual. I agree the if Germany would have left Russia alone it war would be totally defferent. But that is a huge what if. Hitler's stated goal was always Russia.

As far as my statement about newer data, you set the timelframe of your study on the Russian front, not I. If you don't indicate a familarity with current data, how is one to know?

But I firmly hold you and your opinions , in the highest regard. I always am interested in your posts.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Hey Paul (Seahawk), do they require any comprehension of military history to make Admiral? Just curious.

So RPKESQ, you must have a pretty strong academic background for your assertions? Years of study? Right?

Well I have studied military history my entire life (over 45 years) as a hobby and am now working on a Masters in it. My prior degrees (Masters) were in Biology and Anthropology.

[aap1966]

Originally Posted by serge944

Is that what you read in your 6th grade world history class?

Yes, I learnt the basic facts fairly early and went into more detail as time went on.

I'm not sure how to respond to your detailed argument of, and I quote ""

Tell you what, I'll meet your and raise you a


Sorry, I know it's wrong to feed the trolls, but this is such a subtle, detailed and authoritive argument I can't resist.