Saturn = Opel?

silverc4s · silverc4s's Garage

Does anybody know for a fact that the current crop (2007-2008) of Saturn models are actually GM DE ( Opel) designs? Is there a backstory here? I am particularly interested in the Outlook crossover SUV, which seems to be a very practical 7 to 8 passenger SUV for the money - mid to high 30s depending on equipment with 0% financing available right now. Thanks for the feedback...

TGTIW · 05:35 AM

I believe Vauxhaulls, actually. I don't know about the SUVs, I don't think Vauxhall makes one.

Vauxhal Astra

Saturn Astra

Saturn on the Left, Vauxhall on the Right

legion · 10-09-2008, 05:36 AM

GM owns them all, and has a long history of sharing models between divisions.

The Pontiac GTO was actually the Holden Monaro. The Astra is made by Opel, Vauxhal, and Saturn. The G5/Cobalt is rebadged by just about every division. Opel makes a version of the Sky/Solstice.

Then there are the models that GM purchases from other companies. The Saturn Vue is made by Honda (their version is called the Element). The Pontiac Vibe is made by Toyota (their version is called the Matrix).

onewhippedpuppy · 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion

GM owns them all, and has a long history of sharing models between divisions.

The Pontiac GTO was actually the Holden Monaro. The Astra is made by Opel, Vauxhal, and Saturn. The G5/Cobalt is rebadged by just about every division. Opel makes a version of the Sky/Solstice.

Then there are the models that GM purchases from other companies. The Saturn Vue is made by Honda (their version is called the Element). The Pontiac Vibe is made by Toyota (their version is called the Matrix).

Correct, except for the Saturn Vue. I don't believe the Element and Vue are the same platform. However, Saturn does buy the V6 from Honda that goes into the Vue.

GM is the only American company smart enough to bring their best cars from around the world to the USA. Ford's european line-up is filled with quality, dynamic cars. Many of them are rated as best in class by the euro press, such as the Mondeo and euro-Focus (totally different car). Sadly, they keep selling us crap.

The Outlook is a good SUV, one of the few that currently make sense. 25 MPG isn't bad for the size and seating capacity. I think it's a US only product, and shared with Buick, Chevy, and GMC.

Porsche_monkey · 10-09-2008, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Ford's european line-up is filled with quality, dynamic cars. Many of them are rated as best in class by the euro press, such as the Mondeo and euro-Focus (totally different car). Sadly, they keep selling us crap.

That is changing as we speak.

onewhippedpuppy · 10-09-2008, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porsche_monkey

That is changing as we speak.

Which, them selling us crap or bringing euro-market cars to the USA?

They're bringing the Fiesta, which is a start. Of course, they aren't bringing the high-MPG diesel. Good thinking Ford!

It's always pissed me off how cars like the Focus are excellent in Europe, and pure crap here. Of course, they make more selling us crap that costs next to nothing to produce. Until the American consumer REALIZES that it is crap, and quits buying. But then Washington just bails them out, so it's fine.

Porsche_monkey · 10-09-2008, 06:26 AM

I do not believe their diesels will meet emissions here. And sulphur content is also a problem, IIRC.

It's not simply a matter of Ford not wanting to sell them. And it's not just Ford.

onewhippedpuppy · 10-09-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porsche_monkey

I do not believe their diesels will meet emissions here. And sulphur content is also a problem, IIRC.

It's not simply a matter of Ford not wanting to sell them. And it's not just Ford.

Considering the Mercedes, VW, and BMW are all selling 50-state compliant diesels, and our diesel fuel is now "clean", I don't think Ford really has any excuses. It's just another example of their lack of foresight, they'll drop the ball yet again.

MotoSook · 10-09-2008, 07:17 AM

We have a 2008 Outlook. I wish we could have held out for another year as the 2009 models have direct injection (might be worst than the regular injectors when time comes to replace them) which improves mileage and power. Yet I am not disappointed with it at all. The design is a little decieving for size as it looks smallish from a distance, but when you pack a whole family in there you realize it's a dang big vehicle. We have a baby seat and four other children that regularly crowd into our Outlook, and there is plenty of space. The third row seat and access to the third row seat are what sold us on the Outlook.

I was absolutely opposed to buying anything American and was actually settled on buying an Acura MDX before we happened to stop in at the Saturn dealer. With the rear seats folded, there is over 6 feet of length in the rear and actually more roomy than a Tahoe. The third row seat access and roominess is unmatched by any other 3rd row seating SUV. The drivetrain is a proven system (engine anyhow, but the tranny was well designed).

Fit and finish is typical American. The interior plastic is thin and flimsy...and very plastic. The exterior panel don't fit as well (look at how the front facia hangs and how the hood hangs) as I would expect in today's manufacturing environment. The plastic exterior trims are...plastic.

We have the XR AWD version with leather trim and the Touring option. It handles very well and drives much better than the truck base SUV's I've driven. The interior features make for a very comfy ride as well. We took the family on a 2500 mile road trip last summer, and everyone was fine in it. Five kids in the vehicle for those many miles and everyone was happy.

With almost 9,000 miles in a year's ownership we are very happy with the Outlook. I think it's a great value for the money also if you need a large vehicle. With employee pricing and 0% finanacing, it's an even better bargain than when we purchased our Outlook.

silverc4s · silverc4s's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Considering the Mercedes, VW, and BMW are all selling 50-state compliant diesels, and our diesel fuel is now "clean", I don't think Ford really has any excuses. It's just another example of their lack of foresight, they'll drop the ball yet again.

My son in law is in the Oil (refinery) business, and most of the one's he's associated with have already done a ULSD conversion or in the process of finishing one now. Low Sulphur Diesel fuel will be widely available by year end. Too bad politicians have managed to tax away many of the advantages of Diesel. There must be better ways to get trucks to pay for all their highway destruction than a tax on Diesel fuel...

So, The Saturn Outlook, and it's cousins are a North American designed product? Including the 24V VVt V6? Pretty impressive, from what I have seen.

The Gaijin · 10-09-2008, 07:55 AM

With these rising energy prices - you would think Ford and GM would be ready to step right up with small and medium sized cars and trucks that they have engineered in Europe and Australia.

All kinds of Vaxhalls, Opels and Fords that much better than the doufus small pickups and crappy economy cars now offered..

onewhippedpuppy · 10-09-2008, 08:00 AM

As far as I know the Outlook and family are a NA product. Honestly, nobody designs SUVs for Europe, so it's a logical conclusion.

Agreed on the diesel, it's a damn shame. The answer to many of our energy issues has been under our nose for years in the form of diesel. There's a reason why the majority of vehicles in Europe are diesel. Imagine the difference if all of our vehicles could get 30% better MPG, without any expensive and complex technology. Maybe someday our lawmakers will pull their heads out and reduce taxes on diesel fuel, but I'm not holding my breath.

onewhippedpuppy · 10-09-2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gaijin

With these rising energy prices - you would think Ford and GM would be ready to step right up with small and medium sized cars and trucks that they have engineered in Europe and Australia.

All kinds of Vaxhalls, Opels and Fords that much better than the doufus small pickups and crappy economy cars now offered..

US Focus:

Euro Focus:

Thanks Ford!

Britwrench · 10-09-2008, 08:04 AM

Souk,

I like the Saturn range, but the problem is: the lack of dealerships...who is going to drive miles and miles to see (and get serviced in the future) a car? Reality is; it is "just" a car.

Maybe GM should intergrate Buick/Saturn as their mid-range quality line-up and then have seperate Cadillac and Chevrolet "stand alone" stores within one building.
Corvette should be a totally seperate building.

onewhippedpuppy · 10-09-2008, 08:09 AM

I would think most GM dealerships could repair a Saturn. Maybe I'm wrong?

Having owned a Cadillac, I totally agree. Premium brand should equal a premium experience at the dealership, as you get with a Lexus, Mercedes, etc. Every dealer I went to for our SRX treated me like it was a Cavalier, because they service everything GM. By that I mean the customer service was piss-poor. Cadillac has some decent vehicles, but will always be at a disadvantage due to the service aspect.

MotoSook · 10-09-2008, 08:11 AM

I'm not familiar with the dealership network in your area, but we have two Saturn dealerships here in our area (actually owned by the same guy). I hate going to the dealer for anything. Even for waranty work. It's a big waste of my time. I can't spare the time to have to wait on them. There are always issues getting the car into the shop and after I leave the shop. They quality of service has a lot of room for improvement.

As for getting service, I'm sure a Buick or Chevrolet dealer will perform service on an Outlook as they are basically the same. Not sure about the other models.

I think GM still wants their Buick brand as there are lots of people out there still who think their is something special about a Buick.

VincentVega · 10-09-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

I think GM still wants their Buick brand as there are lots of people out there still who think their is something special about a Buick.

I agree, but there are less of those folks every year.

onewhippedpuppy · 10-09-2008, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Martin

I agree, but there are less of those folks every year.

Losing the customer base due to death from old age. Not so good for business.

The Gaijin · 10-09-2008, 08:23 AM

.

The bet this handles better than the E-350, and gets better MPG as well.

MotoSook · 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Martin

I agree, but there are less of those folks every year.

I can't disagree with you there.

One of the problems with GM and the other not-so-big-anymore threes is that they are hanging on to the wrong aspects of their history.

I'm not surprised at all that they are on the verge of failure, and I'm not at all happy that our Congress is giving them loans to keep them in business. There is value in keeping them in business, but there needs to be a big shift in how they operate and their design and marketing philosophy. Unfortunately, I don't think it'll happen....and I believe a total failure would be good for the Detroit industry. After failure and rebirth with the right people, right design, right marketing, right manufacturing would make for a better industry and one that most certainly would be more efficient.