help with first shotgun purchase

[Tim Hancock]

My wife is 5'4" and under 110 lbs as are my daughters in college. They all have shot my 12 ga Mossberg pump and a Blackhawk .44 magnum revolver. The key to introducing a shotgun to a small framed person for the first time is to make darn sure they fully understand the need to FIRMLY plant the stock against their shoulder. It is easy to simulate what happens if they hold it loosely by having them hold it loose and manually shoving it against their shoulder, then repeating while they hold it firmly against the shoulder.

[Rick V]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

My wife is 5'4" and under 110 lbs as are my daughters in college. They all have shot my 12 ga Mossberg pump and a Blackhawk .44 magnum revolver. The key to introducing a shotgun to a small framed person for the first time is to make darn sure they fully understand the need to FIRMLY plant the stock against their shoulder. It is easy to simulate what happens if they hold it loosely by having them hold it loose and manually shoving it against their shoulder, then repeating while they hold it firmly against the shoulder.

And start out with very light trap loads. For inside a home 2 3/4 #8 is all you need. Will put an intruder down, won't go through walls and into the next room, easy to handle.
For people who think a pistol griped 12ga. is too hard to handle for a small woman, come on over. Both my wife and daughter are small people, and they have no issues with the 870.

[lendaddy]

I was always told to load alternately bird/buck or bird/slug. That way the first shot is a blinding/can't miss spray and the second is the point blank "out of business" load.

Always seemed logical to me.

[Jeff Higgins]

Several here have already raised this point, but it bears repeating. Weapon retention is a bigger issue than most would think, especially in the confines of one's home. The longer the gun, the easier it is to grab. The longer the gun, the harder it is to use it in a hallway, or to enter another room with it. I can think of few things worse than going after an intruder nad having him take your gun.

A shotgun excells where one has a "safe place" and can remain stationary. Think locking the bedroom door and getting on the other side of the bed. I know my wife is more comfortable with this strategy than to go looking for some one in the house; I suspect most women, alone in their home, would feel the same way. As a matter of fact, most men would be well served to follow a similar approach. If there are children or other family members in other rooms, gather them all in the "safe place" if at all possible. If that is not possible, simply cover the hallway. Forget the macho "go git 'em" attitude; stay in the safe room, cover any entry, and call the cops.

Things change if you really feel the need to go looking for the intruder. If children, elderly parents, or whomever, sleep downstairs, at the other end of the house, or what have you. Anywhere that the intruder is between the defensive arm and them. Then, and only then, would I ever consider going on a hunt for the intruder. If that is the case, a shotgun can prove to be less than ideal. A short barreled revolver becomes the prefered tool.

Most folks would be surprised how many defensive shootings happen when physical contact between the defender and the bad guy has already occured. Imagine holding the bad guy off with one hand, stiffarming him like a running back, while firing from your side. Tough to do with a shotgun.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that you need to evaluate your situation. Form a plan. Then, and only then, go get the gun that fits that plan. Don't buy the gun first and then fit the plan to the gun. Understand her needs first. If she is like most women home alone, she will likely prefer to lock herself in her room and call the cops. Covering the door from accross the bed with a shotgun may be her best option under those conditions.

[competentone]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

I was always told to load alternately bird/buck or bird/slug. That way the first shot is a blinding/can't miss spray and the second is the point blank "out of business" load.

Always seemed logical to me.

At the ranges in most people's homes, one is not going to get any "can't miss spray" with a shotgun, no matter what the load.

We need to get some pictures posted here showing the "pattern" of shotgun loads at distances of 10-20 feet and dispel that myth that shotguns "spray" pellets!

[Rick V]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that you need to evaluate your situation. Form a plan. Then, and only then, go get the gun that fits that plan. Don't buy the gun first and then fit the plan to the gun.

Best advice you will ever get. What works for me may not work for you.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

What do you guys think about loading with rifled slugs? Those will put down ANYTHING short of maybe a Blue Whale, and I doubt there will be many of those breaking into my place anytime soon. Yes it's "only one" shot but in home defense situations, they should be plenty accurate.

Maybe load round #1 as 00 buckshot and round #2 with a 1560 fps slug just in case the bad guy doesn't get the hint after #1... ?

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by competentone

At the ranges in most people's homes, one is not going to get any "can't miss spray" with a shotgun, no matter what the load.

We need to get some pictures posted here showing the "pattern" of shotgun loads at distances of 10-20 feet and dispel that myth that shotguns "spray" pellets!

At 15 ft you can get ~ a foot of effective spray at least, yes? That's about a hallway long and certainly not insignificant in my book.

[competentone]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

What do you guys think about loading with rifled slugs?

A lot more energy and penetration than you would need to stop a human attacker.

If used in a home situation, be aware that the slug could likely go right through the intruder, right through the walls of your house, and through the walls of you neighbor's house (if you have neighboring houses close by).

Back to the issue of shotgun vs. handgun for home defense: While any firearm fired indoors is going to be "senses numbing" to the shooter, the percussion and muzzle flash from a shotgun is going to be a lot more disruptive to you, the home defender, than the effects from a handgun.

Just another issue to consider when choosing a "home defense" firearm.

[competentone]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

At 15 ft you can get ~ a foot of effective spray at least, yes? That's about a hallway long and certainly not insignificant in my book.

More like "5 inches" (at best) to a shotgun pattern at 15 feet.

Here are some buckshot patterns at 15 yards. The author writes about a "just opening to a hand-sized" pattern at 5-7 yards:

http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/patterntest/buck1-1.htm

I'm sure there are some good pictures of patterns in the 15 foot range somewhere online, though I can't find any with a quick search. Next time I take my shotgun to the range (which isn't too often since I find mild recoiling firearms more "fun") I'll take some pictures.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by competentone

More like "5 inches" (at best) to a shotgun pattern at 15 feet.

Here are some buckshot patterns at 15 yards. The author writes about a "just opening to a hand-sized" pattern at 5-7 yards:

http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/patterntest/buck1-1.htm

I'm sure there are some good pictures of patterns in the 15 foot range somewhere online, though I can't find any with a quick search. Next time I take my shotgun to the range (which isn't too often since I find mild recoiling firearms more "fun") I'll take some pictures.

That is buckshot, 9 pellets. We're talking bird shot. I'll see what I can find. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your data is not apples to apples.

[Jeff Higgins]

There is virtually no dispersion to a shotgun pattern, regardless of choke, regardless of shot size, at living room ranges. They must be aimed and fired like a rifle. I've tried this many times on paper, firing at ranges of 10-15 feet, with a cylinder choked gun and every shot size between 000 buckshot and #9's. The biggest hole in paper was still smaller than a tennis ball.

[Rot 911]

Jeff is giving the best thought out advice in my opinion.

[targa911S]

Jeffs advice is spot on along with Frenchies advice on proper training. However, and I have said this 1000 times, in my house 12 ga. the first shot is rubber buckshot. It is powerful enough to knock em down but not kill em especially at close range. This could avoid an accidental killing of some one. The rest of my mag is 00 buck.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=89133

[scottmandue]

I just got a Rem. 870 HD shotgun, up in the rack in the store next to the hunting shotguns it looks small. When I got it home and unpacked it it was very large, and at 5'11" 210 I'm not a little guy.

It would still be useful in the event I had to defend my house from the front porch however if someone broke into the house it would be much more practical to grab my 9mm.

I have not fired the 870 yet (have fired my uncles 12 Ga.) and there is a range over by LAX that allows shotguns, I have not checked it out yet but if it is a nice range (someone told me parking is a PITA) and you are interested we could get together so you and your wife could check out the shotgun... heck maybe we could get Jeff (P-O-P) to show up and we could compare the Moss. to the Rem.

I'm going up to Morro Bay for vacation however I will be back the first of Oct.

[M.D. Holloway]

You can always get a couple of Rottys while you are making up your mind.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Yea, I'd be up for that - there's a range in Artesia that's pretty close too (Insight) that allows shotguns. They've got several different models for rent too so you can try them out.

[nostatic]

If you guys want to do a shotgun run I'm game. I've never shot one, but will likely pick up an 870 or equivalent.

Actually my boss wants to take me skeet shooting as well.

[legion]

I have three barrels for my 870: a 20" rifled barrel, an 18" cylinder-bore barrel, and a 24" field barrel. I shoot trap with a turkey choke.

[Cdnone1]

The range by LAX is not that far from me. I would love to get together with some of you guys that have gun experience and shot both shotguns and hand guns.
Steve