Backpackers Beware

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by nostatic

I have never heard of an elk attacking a human un-provoked.

You must not spend much time in elk habitat during the rut. They get very, very aggressive. Everything is fair game. Including us. Not that this is a common problem or anything, but it is best to avoid all manner of cervid during their rut. Even the lowly, gentle white tail has killed more than a few guys. Not so much the wild ones, but the game farmed ones. Sweet justice in a way, I suppose.

I hear they are particularly put off by poor taste in hats. Best to wear a snappy one.

[nostatic]

I suppose my point would be that if one stays out of their habitat then it is a non-issue.

There are other places to wear the hat

[jeffgrant]

Originally Posted by nostatic

I suppose my point would be that if one stays out of their habitat then it is a non-issue.

There are other places to wear the hat

And if you stayed in your apartment 100% of the time, odds are pretty good you'd never get hit by a car. Regardless of the hat you wore.


Being aware of your surroundings and being prepared can help mitigate the risk of just about any endeavour.

[nostatic]

Jeff, I'm not rabidly anti-hunting. It really isn't for me but I understand the attraction on various levels. My point is that saying that one needs to be prepared to shoot an elk in self-defense is somewhat silly...unless you're there to hunt it. And in that case yes, you better be prepared. But if someone is just out for a hike, I'd guess that the odds of a good elk goring are near zero.

[MT930]

I am not a fan of bear meat to strong for my liking. I would not buy a bear tag because I would not consume it. I do enjoy seeing them at a distance. I see one or two Griz every year in the back country or on the roadways. Always a big thrill!

I have had several encounters with bears(Griz) here in Montana and Alaska the scariest was in Yellowstone Park back country in 1993 still gives me the shakes when I think about it. That was pre pepper spray (not that I have any confidence in PS). All I had was a swiss army knife. Firearms were not allowed in the park at that time Federal law. The bear charged us a few times got about 10 feet away.
I left my underware there.


I would not have any hesitation on defending my self or my party if the need arises. These are big tough critters, the local fish wildlife park officers carry .44 Mag & 454 for that reason. Up close you are still at a disadvantage with whose weapons.

One fish wildlife & parks guy told me "If you carry a .357 make sure you file the front site down so it won't hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your arse".


Native Americans here kill everything with a .22 LR it may take a few rounds to put something down, you could kill a bear with a spear in fact it was the weapon of choice for a thousand years. That was when men were men.

Elk in rut, their (mating season) will run you over and gut you like a fish. But you need to be close if you are bow hunting. A bull elk can be very dangerous.

Female moose with calves are deadly if you run across one.

[jeffgrant]

That's cool, but I live here in BC, and every year I see the news stories about people that drastically underestimate nature and end up either getting hurt or killed. (Don't get me started about the morons that go hiking or skiing out of bounds).

Around here, a 15 minute drive can land you smack dab in the middle of the wilderness and the wild animals that go along with it, and most of them have no idea how that wildlife behaves or what to do if you come into contact with it.

Hell, I've got black bears that roam around my place every couple of days. I doubt 99% of the people that walk around in the area have any idea what to do if they come into contact with one. One lady got her face ripped up last year as a result, and the black bear was tracked down and killed.


Elk are exactly like Jeff (Higgins) stated... they can be VERY aggressive. For instance, Banff National Park is closed to people during some parts of the year due to the overly aggressive nature of elk during that time (calving). That closing was brought upon by the long history of dangerous elk behaviour and the resulting injuries to people that were just out hiking.


I really think people should not be afraid to head out into the wild, or have fun. They should, however, educate themselves about the wildlife they are likely to meet, and take the appropriate precautions.

Shooting an animal in a non-hunting situation should be a last resort, but I've always been a firm proponent of the fact that it's better to have a gun and not need it, than it is to not have a gun and need it.

[jeffgrant]

To put things into perspective, this is a common scene in the summer.

That's about 20' out of my office window.

[MT930]

This big guy in Mammoth, WY YNP Park HQ, has beat up several visitors from the city that think there tame. They will square off with pickup trucks in the rut.

Very fun to watch!

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by nostatic

I have never heard of an elk attacking a human un-provoked. Do I have to start worrying about this now too? Bands of killer elk wandering the streets of LA spoiling for a good goring?

Wandering the streets picking fights you say?

Here's one ramming cars. Moving cars.



Don't mess with elk.

[MT930]

Great Videos !

The bull elk in the 2nd one is the same one I posted old #42? I think, he is famous for major damage. He kicks a couples peoples arse's every year. I watched him take the plastic grill out of a rental car with some out of country visitors a few years ago, priceless !

No Martha they are not tame.

The bison kills somebody every few years. The bears can claim 2-3 per year sometimes more, just in the park (YNP) only. I would rather have these as the hazards than some of the suff that is in the city. Animals are more predictable that some humans.

[m21sniper]

I had an up close and personal with a Bison in the Wichita Mountains National Wildlife Refuge just outside Fort Sill once back in the 80s.

You cannot appreciate how big and intimidating and powerful an animal like that is until you round a blind bend in the path and there's a 2,000lb Bison 6 feet in front of you, staring directly at you. This thing was motherloving huge.

The only thing between me and him was about 72" of air and a thin layer of clothing. They have been known to attack humans esp. if they have calves around, which i had been warned about by some buddies in my Company in advance, so i was seriously concerned for my safety.

Anyway, i just stood there staring directly at this guy for a good 30 minutes completely motionless until he wandered off. I remember thinking the whole time, "Don't start pawing at the ground." (bad bad sign)

Nothing happened, but if he wanted me dead there would not have been a damn thing i could have done about it, and i knew it.

It was definitely an epiphinal moment. (there are some pretty scary Bison attacks on youtube)

Here's a vid of a small one charging a motorcycle. The one i ran into was a full grown adult male. Huuuuuge animal.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Jeff, I'm not rabidly anti-hunting. It really isn't for me but I understand the attraction on various levels. My point is that saying that one needs to be prepared to shoot an elk in self-defense is somewhat silly...unless you're there to hunt it. And in that case yes, you better be prepared. But if someone is just out for a hike, I'd guess that the odds of a good elk goring are near zero.

Yup, you are absolutely right. They are ridiculously easy to avoid. The rut only lasts a month, and most folks have to go seriously out of their way to even be around them. Those that live with them daily are, well... living in the wrong place. At least if they failed "rutting elk avoidance 101". It just ain't that hard. Folks that manage to get hurt by them pretty much bring it on themselves. Back to that Honda ad - "stupid hurts"...

[m21sniper]

I dunno, some of the vids i saw on youtube today were in residential areas and in most cases the Elk did not seem like they were in any way provoked.

Obviously this is just a small sampling of Elk attacks, but some of them seem to charge with no provocation at all. And hikers or bikers who are not hunting at all can definitely have their day ruined by any number of large animals.

It's not just a case of man intruding and provoking. Based on the attack records that Danimal and i posted today, it seems like some are very much not the victim's fault in the slightest. (not claiming to be an expert, but there are quite a few videos that anyone can watch on you tube and judge for themselves- i posted a few above)

Some of them are ABSOLUTELY the person's fault.

[Jeff Higgins]

Watching the videos posted above, it is glaringly obvious to me that each and every situation shown was entirely avoidable. Most of us, save for the examples shown in these clips, are somewhat more intelligent than these animals. Cross the street, stay out of their "personal space", whatever. Like I said, it ain't that hard...

[m21sniper]

You really felt like the guy crossing the lawn and chased on foot by the elk was his fault? (seemed like he did a good job in handling it, probably not the first time he'd been chased)

I honestly didn't take it that way at all, though in fairness the beginning of the encounter is not on film. For all i know the guy might have tried to pet the damn thing.

As they told us in the Army over and over at the beginning of every field problem:

"Stay away from the wildlife."

That solves 99% of all problems before they ever happen i bet.

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

That's a big motherfking bear man.

Jeez.

PS: really nice shot.

+100 on that what a monster!

[MT930]

When Living in Jackson, WY in the early 90's 3 Blocks from the center of town.

I had a Bull moose that would not let me use my back door to enter or exit the house, lasted a week or so. He was very serious about it not letting any one pass.

These guy's would not let us pass on snowmobiles couple years ago.

[RWebb]

I also thought the guy did a job of evading, using trees to block, using the car, etc.

One thing is that the animal can feel you are intruding and provoking, even if you do not feel that way.

Adolescent male Grizz have a real bad ass attitude. In one attack, the bear was on one ridgeline and hikers were on another. The bear ran all the way down slope, across the effing valley, and then UP slope to the hikers, where he mauled them. I forget the total distance - but it was 2-4 miles. Think that incident is in Steve Herrero's book.

Also note that the one elk "won" every damn encounter - he gored and butted some cars and drove them off. He drove off other cars just by facing them down. That elk is certain that he is one bad mother and that cars are not dangerous.

My favorite scene in the vids above tho is the old guy in the black truck - he doesn't even bother to glance at the elk, but he turns and stares ate something unusual -- the guys with the video camera.

For a fun watch see if you can find some vids on musk oxen - great defensive formations, tho not up to Alexander's phalanx.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by MT930

When Living in Jackson, WY in the early 90's 3 Blocks from the center of town.

I had a Bull moose that would not let me use my back door to enter or exit the house, lasted a week or so. He was very serious about it not letting any one pass.

These guy's would not let us pass on snowmobiles couple years ago.

Well i'm sure it was your fault both times.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Adolescent male Grizz have a real bad ass attitude. In one attack, the bear was on one ridgeline and hikers were on another. The bear ran all the way down slope, across the effing valley, and then UP slope to the hikers, where he mauled them. I forget the total distance - but it was 2-4 miles. Think that incident is in Steve Herrero's book.

Jeez, that's pretty terrifying if the details are accurate.

Rest assured you will never see me in Grizzly country without a .44 Magnum or larger.

I'll browse around you tube for any vids on the elk formations today. Thanks for the heads up. I love these animal videos. I can (and sometimes do) watch them for hours at a time.

I posted some good videos in the mountain lion thread too. A few are highly disturbing, but a few of them are just plain awesome too. The one where the Tiger closes 50 meters and leaps 10 feet in the air to attack a man on an elephant before the guy sitting right next to him can even get a single shot off is out of this world.