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Cars & Coffee Killer
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: State of Failure
Posts: 32,246
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Out Of Gas
Full gas tanks could stop many small plane crashes
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Some Porsches long ago...then a wankle... 5 liters of VVT fury now -Chris "There is freedom in risk, just as there is oppression in security." |
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Registered
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Don't unexpected head winds affect this often?
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David 1972 911T/S MFI Survivor |
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THE IRONMAN
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Yup...but all related back to the driver ability/intelligence.
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1984 911 CARRERA RUBY RED TARGA SW CHIPPED-BURSCH CATBYPASS MONTY FREE FLOW EXHAUST <IN GAS WE TRUST> |
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"O"man(are we in trouble)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: On the edge
Posts: 16,452
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You don't always need full tanks but you do need to know how much you have in those tanks and what your plan is. Once again, it's stupid to not know and so easy to make sure what you have will get you where you want to go plus the appropriate reserve.
I preflight my plane every time I fly, no matter if it's around the pattern or cross country. I's the little things that will kill you. I'd rather be going over a checklist on the ground than trying to do an emergency restart not knowing how much fuel was in the tanks while trying to set up for an emergency landing in the trees. I am aware of a guy at DXR that never, never drained his sumps. Cost him his life along w/ a passenger in a J-3, no reason in the world for that stuff to happen. |
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Registered
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Having run out of gas a week ago in the middle of the desert, I can sympathize somewhat.
Anyone here read Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers? He has a great chapter about plane crashes due to cultural and language misunderstandings between cockpit crews and air traffic controllers. He mentions one fatal commercial jetliner crash in NY where the ATC was having the plane circle the airport and the Columbian pilot simply was not forceful enough in telling ATC that he didn't have the fuel to continue doing that for as long as they wanted him to. A surviving flight attendant (pilots were killed) even recounted to the NTSB that he'd seen the warning light just before the crash.
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2022 BMW 530i 2021 MB GLA250 2020 BMW R1250GS |
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canna change law physics
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A buddy of my, who still flies, was involved in a serious crash with a plane on Long Island in the mid 1990's.
He had recently had 2 "near miss" issues with a rented place (Million-air - landing gear down and locked light was not working properly). So the FAA sent someone out to give him a check ride. While they were circling, the FAA inspector shut the fuel off to the engine, to simulate an engine out. Appearently, this is normal in a multi-engine plane, but not in a single engine plane. I was told later that the proper way to do this is to run the throttle all the way back. Engine would not restart. The FAA inspector took control of the aircraft at that point and attempted to land on a street. Turned out to not be deserted and had children playing. They barely made it over the rooftops and crashed in a ditch. Long story short, the inspector should not have cut fuel off to the engine. He was appearently not qualified to do the check ride. And his license was expired. The inspector was screwed.
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James The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the engineer adjusts the sails.- William Arthur Ward (1921-1994) Red-beard for President, 2020 |
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Get off my lawn!
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There is simply no excuse for running out of gas. I have never done it in all my years of driving a car. Death is very rare for running out of gas in a car. Not so much for an airplane.
When I was 16 and started driving my dad told me if I have a problem on the road just find a phone and he will come help, unless I run out of gas. Then I was on my own.
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Glen 49 Year member of the Porsche Club of America 1985 911 Carrera; 2017 Macan 1986 El Camino with Fuel Injected 350 Crate Engine My Motto: I will never be too old to have a happy childhood! |
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Cars & Coffee Killer
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: State of Failure
Posts: 32,246
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Oh, and some history on why I'm asking this:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/388441-question-pilots.html
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Some Porsches long ago...then a wankle... 5 liters of VVT fury now -Chris "There is freedom in risk, just as there is oppression in security." |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: N. Phoenix AZ USA
Posts: 28,977
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Took my getting close to running out of fuel ONCE and thats it. My copilots sometimes give me trouble about putting a bit extra fuel on board but usually after flying a while they learn.
Weather where you have to divert, stronger than forcast headwinds and so on. We use our watch for our fuel gauge. Its accurate and unless you have a leak you are very close.
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2021 Subaru Legacy, 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins (the workhorse), 1992 Jaguar XJ S-3 V-12 VDP (one of only 100 examples made), 1969 Jaguar XJ (been in the family since new), 1985 911 Targa backdated to 1973 RS specs with a 3.6 shoehorned in the back, 1959 Austin Healey Sprite (former SCCA H-Prod), 1995 BMW R1100RSL, 1971 & '72 BMW R75/5 "Toaster," Ural Tourist w/sidecar, 1949 Aeronca Sedan / QB |
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Parrothead member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Monmouth county, NJ USA
Posts: 13,914
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This crash below was the result of running out of fuel. Apparently it was the pilots second out of fuel incident that he put a plane down. He was only about 5 miles out from his airport. Believe it or not, he survived this crash. The passenger in the front seat did not.
Thats yours truly on the right in the red turnout gear.... ![]() Heres the NTSBS report. NYC96FA084 HISTORY OF FLIGHT On April 6, 1996, about 1610 eastern standard time, a Pitts S-2B, N917JD, was destroyed during a forced landing in Freehold Township, New Jersey. The commercial pilot received serious injuries, and the passenger was fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed for the local flight which departed Old Bridge, New Jersey, earlier, at an undetermined time, and was operated under 14 CFR Part 91. A witness observed the pilot preparing the airplane for departure about 1415. No witnesses were located who observed the departure. Witnesses observed the accident airplane in the Freehold Township area about 1600. One witness saw the airplane in a climb and heard the engine. He reported it sounded normal, until the engine sputtered and stopped. The airplane then pitched down, and he lost sight of the airplane behind buildings. Other witness saw the airplane in the final stages of the forced landing, and reported that as the airplane neared the ground, in a wings level attitude, the nose dropped, and it impacted the ground nose first. Witnesses and emergency personnel who responded to the scene did not report a smell of fuel. In the NTSB Accident Report, the pilot stated: "We departed Old Bridge Airport for a short VFR pleasure flight in the local area. We flew south/southeast of the airport at about 2,000-3,000' [feet]. No acrobatic maneuvers were performed. While in a cruise descent back to Old Bridge, at an altitude of about 1,000' [feet] AGL, the engine suddenly ceased operating. I remember setting the aircraft up for an off-airport emergency landing. I have no memory of the last moments of the flight prior to the crash. I do not precisely recall the exact time of the afternoon departure from Old Bridge, but the entire flight lasted about twenty minutes." The accident occurred during the hours of daylight at location 40 degrees, 14 minutes, 6 seconds North and 74 degrees, 14, minutes, 51 seconds, West. PERSONNEL INFORMATION The rear seat pilot was the holder of Commercial Pilot Certificate, with airplane single engine land/sea, multi-engine land, and instrument airplane ratings. He also held a flight instructor certificate for airplane single and multi-engine land, and instrument airplane. He was issued an FAA 2nd Class Airman Medical Certificate on April 6, 1995. According to the pilot's log book, this was his first flight in a tail wheel airplane and the Pitts S-2B since November 27, 1995. However, the pilot had flown 8.3 hours in the preceding 90 days. The front seat pilot held an expired student pilot certificate. According to FAA records, she had in excess of 57 hours. AIRCRAFT INFORMATION The airplane was a 1994 Pitts S-2B, built by Aviat, Inc., in Afton, Wyoming. It was powered by a Lycoming AEIO-540-D4A5 engine which developed 260 horse power. The airplane had two fuel tanks. The main tank located behind the firewall, and forward of the front seat held 23 gallons useable, and the auxiliary tank located in the upper wing held 5 gallons useable. The airplane was equipped with a sight gage on the rear instrument panel for determining fuel quantity. This gage consisted of a clear plastic tube which was connected to the main fuel tank. The fluid observed in the tube was at the same level as in the fuel tank. According to Aviat, the system was calibrated for level flight, and not ground. The FAA approved airplane flight manual stated: "...The empty line is at the useable fuel level in tank in level flight. It is very important to know what amount of fuel you have on board before any flight is attempted...." In addition to the sight gage, the airplane was equipped with an electronic fuel used counter. In a telephone interview, a production test pilot for Aviat, reported that in a coordinated stall, the nose of the airplane drops straight ahead, and there is no tendency to fall off on a wing. The buffet will appear about three to five miles per hour prior to the stall, and the stall speed would be about 65 mph. WRECKAGE AND IMPACT INFORMATION The airplane was examined at the accident site on April 7, 1996. The airplane had impacted in an open field. To extricate one of the occupants, the wings were removed, and the fuselage rolled from its impact position. Both blades of the propeller were bent rearward. There was no leading edge impact damage or chordwise scratching on the front surface. The engine was still attached by the mounts, and been pushed up about 60 degrees. Compression was found in all cylinders, and valve train continuity was confirmed. The sparkplugs were gray in appearance. The fuel system was intact with all lines attached. No fuel was found in any fuel lines. However, about 20 ounces of fuel was drained from the fuel tank and fuel strainer. The fuel caps for both tanks were found at the accident site. A hole about the size of a nickel was found on the upper left side of the main fuel tank. The metal around the hole was bent inward. There was no evidence of a fuel spill, leak, or siphoning from the fuel tanks. In addition, there was no evidence of a ground fuel spill. The instrument panel on the front cockpit was pushed toward the rear. The rear cockpit maintained its shape. Flight control continuity was verified between both cockpits and the empennage. Flight control continuity to the ailerons was compromised when the wings were removed. Aileron push rods were found separated in the same areas that the wings were separated from the fuselage. MEDICAL AND PATHOLOGICAL INFORMATION An autopsy was conducted on the passenger by Sogra Saleem, M.D., medical examiner for Monmouth County, New Jersey, on April 8, 1996. Toxicological testing was conducted by the FAA Civil Aeromedical Institute, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. The results were negative for drugs and alcohol. TESTS AND RESEARCH The electronic fuel quantity used system was removed for additional testing. Upon power up, the unit registered 0.2 gallons used. No other fuel used data was available from the unit. The fuel flow transmitter was functionally checked and found to be within limits. ADDITIONAL DATA/INFORMATION The last known refueling took place at the Old Bridge Airport on November 26, 1995, when the airplane was serviced 13.6 gallons of 100LL. According to the pilot's log book, the airplane was flown again on November 27, 1995, for 1.2 hours. In addition, the pilot was observed to periodically start up the engine during the winter months. There were no records of a refueling after these events. Fuel burn is a function of the engine power setting, altitude flown, and amount of leaning applied to the mixture. The cruise charts from the FAA approved flight manual for the Pitts S-2B revealed a fuel burn of 11 gallons per hour at 10,000 feet, at 2,200 RPM, and 19 inches of manifold pressure. This increased to 21.2 gallons per hour at 2,000 feet, at 2,700 RPM, and 27 inches of manifold pressure. The pilot reported that during pre-flight, the sight gage indicated a fuel load of 60 to 70 percent full (13.8 gallons to 16.1 gallons). In addition, the fuel tank located in the upper wing was empty. According to the FAA Approved flight manual for the airplane, "...The sight gage will only show fuel levels in level flight...." The pilot also reported that he was aware that the sight gage would indicate more fuel than was actually present when the airplane was in a three point attitude on the ground. The aircraft wreckage was released to Freehold Township Police Department on April 8, 1996.
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Vinny Red '86 944, 05 Ford Super Duty Dually '02 Ram 3500 Diesel 4x4 Dually, '07Jeep Wrangler '62 Mercury Meteor '90 Harley 1200 XL "Live your Life in such a way that the Westboro Baptist Church will want to picket your funeral." Last edited by VINMAN; 11-30-2009 at 11:24 AM.. |
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Canucks Fan
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 2,219
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Remember the Gimley Glider? A 737 that ran outta fuel and had to glide a couple of hundred miles before landing at a shut down airforce base in Gimley Manitoba. It happened when Canada did the switch to metric and they filled the plane with litres instead of gallons. Everybody safe and its a great story, they made a movie out of the incident and there were a bunch of drag racers out on the strip when the plane landed
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Parrothead member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Monmouth county, NJ USA
Posts: 13,914
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Quote:
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Vinny Red '86 944, 05 Ford Super Duty Dually '02 Ram 3500 Diesel 4x4 Dually, '07Jeep Wrangler '62 Mercury Meteor '90 Harley 1200 XL "Live your Life in such a way that the Westboro Baptist Church will want to picket your funeral." |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: N. Phoenix AZ USA
Posts: 28,977
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Yes they do and you are not supposed to ask that question in this case!
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2021 Subaru Legacy, 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins (the workhorse), 1992 Jaguar XJ S-3 V-12 VDP (one of only 100 examples made), 1969 Jaguar XJ (been in the family since new), 1985 911 Targa backdated to 1973 RS specs with a 3.6 shoehorned in the back, 1959 Austin Healey Sprite (former SCCA H-Prod), 1995 BMW R1100RSL, 1971 & '72 BMW R75/5 "Toaster," Ural Tourist w/sidecar, 1949 Aeronca Sedan / QB |
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Parrothead member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Monmouth county, NJ USA
Posts: 13,914
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I retract my question...
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Vinny Red '86 944, 05 Ford Super Duty Dually '02 Ram 3500 Diesel 4x4 Dually, '07Jeep Wrangler '62 Mercury Meteor '90 Harley 1200 XL "Live your Life in such a way that the Westboro Baptist Church will want to picket your funeral." |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: N. Phoenix AZ USA
Posts: 28,977
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Vinny,
Its a lot more complicated. You look at the readings on the gauges (in this case an electronic display) and enter this into the computer (FMS, a flight management computer) and from that, your route and winds it will give you an estimate of your fuel remaining upon landing. If its less than the "mins" then things start flashing yellow on ours. Its easy, until the display stops flashing you do not take off but something, or many things did not get done correctly. They did a wonderful job of getting the ship down on a drag strip but it should not have ever happened in the first place.
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2021 Subaru Legacy, 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins (the workhorse), 1992 Jaguar XJ S-3 V-12 VDP (one of only 100 examples made), 1969 Jaguar XJ (been in the family since new), 1985 911 Targa backdated to 1973 RS specs with a 3.6 shoehorned in the back, 1959 Austin Healey Sprite (former SCCA H-Prod), 1995 BMW R1100RSL, 1971 & '72 BMW R75/5 "Toaster," Ural Tourist w/sidecar, 1949 Aeronca Sedan / QB |
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