Where is France?

[J P Stein]

Originally Posted by Geronimo '74

Very well put Stijn!!
I think America took control over the airport to also protect their own borders from terrorism. Hait could make an easy accespoint to the US right now. So I completely understand this.

The US military took over the air traffic control because:
1) it was broken.
2) they had the ability
3) they were the only ones that could do it in a timely manner
4) no one else volunteered
5) it would give the anti-Americans jerks something more to complain about

[1990C4S]

6) they were closest
7) they had the most planes in the vicinity

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

It carries until we stop being the cause of entire populations of people living in abject poverty.

White people....always trying to wash their hands of thier atrocities, and usually without so much as a "sorry."

Sheesh.

Sorry to burst your idealism here... but unless the global population starts reducing itself with a couple of billion... more and more entire populations will live in abject poverty...

No amount of charity, or humanitarian relief, or government aid to third world nations will change that.
If everybody covered it's historical tracks, and payed their so called debts... well, we'de al be living on equal footing then would be?
It would be heaven on earth , no more war, no more poverty, no more epidemics... News agencies would go bust because there would be no more news to bring....
After that, we could all join the effort, and cure cancer in a matter of years... lovely

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

Gee. Here is something new on PPOT. American hatred of France. You are looking awful small, guys.

Ian

Here's a moment of clarity for ya, I don't like france and your opinion of that means absolutely nothing.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by svandamme

Sorry to burst your idealism here... but unless the global population starts reducing itself with a couple of billion... more and more entire populations will live in abject poverty...

No amount of charity, or humanitarian relief, or government aid to third world nations will change that.

That has been my position all along.

You just seconded my opinion, you didn't contradict it.

It's whitey throwing band aid feel good "solutions" at all these problems that ensures perpetual suffering of the unwashed 3rd world masses.

[svandamme]

your point was quite vague there Snipe...

you first agreed that there was some moral obligation for France to do something.
Then you stated that "we" are the cause, and not even a sorry..

And now you agree with me, when i say that it simply doesn't matter who is the guilty party from the past, that the problem is simply caused by to much friggin people on the planet..Saying that was your point all along..

You make your points in strange ways. Especially considering the simple fact, that Western nations have already been working towards a decline in population, driven by increased quality of life...
And that the bulk of the increase in population is not from those nations, but from 3rd and 2nd world countries..
One the baby boomers are gone, there will be a population decrease in most western countries
So by those standards, it's not we, but "them".. contradicting the 2nd statement you made...

"our" biggest problem will be what to do with all them old timers cloggin up the supermarkets in their electric wheel chairs and what not...
Not kidding , you should try visiting Holland some day.. they're everywhere...It's like a massive gang of grey... One of these days, they'll revolt...
A massive influx of pensioners, payed for by .. who ? the generations after the baby boomers, are less in numbers... oh dear... that's my generation...

[m21sniper]

I didnt say i agree with who's fault it is not mattering. I simply said you were agreeing with my position that i espoused in the Haiti thread that this suffering will always continue and that all our "help" is a waste of effort and resources because none of it addresses the real underlying causes.

[svandamme]

owkay.

[m21sniper]

I agree that my point was vague. My apologies.

[Dutchie]

We will see.
French culture is on the line.

Allways funny when us folks talk about culture. Like you know what that is lmao

[Geronimo '74]

Originally Posted by Geronimo '74

I think America took control over the airport to also protect their own borders from terrorism. Haiti could make an easy accespoint to the US right now. So I completely understand this.

Originally Posted by J P Stein

The US military took over the air traffic control because:
1) it was broken.
2) they had the ability
3) they were the only ones that could do it in a timely manner
4) no one else volunteered
5) it would give the anti-Americans jerks something more to complain about

You are right, all the reasons you give are probably true. Except for the last one,

I never said the only reason was to protect US borders.
I said is was ALSO to keep this backdoor, which is now wide open, closed.
This was not criticism, just an observation and a remark that this is good practice.

[J P Stein]

Originally Posted by Geronimo '74

You are right, all the reasons you give are probably true. Except for the last one,

I never said the only reason was to protect US borders.
I said is was ALSO to keep this backdoor, which is now wide open, closed.
This was not criticism, just an observation and a remark that this is good practice.

By the anti-Americans I was really thinking of Chavez and the Swiss "doctors without borders". Lumping them together as anti-American is not much of a stretch. Those doctors had to wait in line just like regular folks in their waiting rooms...MY GOD! Both seem to feel that there is some advantage to the US "controlling Haiti"......as does your statement. As i see it, that pest hole is better left to itself....tho the humanitarian aid is warranted for now, I suppose. After all, who other than the US, will borrow money from China then give it to Haiti?

Getting Haiti back to normal is a bit of an oxymoron where the welfare of the people is concerned. Sealing that access to our borders is a big stretch. That door is no more open than it was before.......which is to say that it is still too far open.

[widgeon13]

It's Bush's fault!

It had to be said.

[RoninLB]

Facing the facts on fake states - NYPOST.com



Facing the facts on fake states
by Ralph Peters
NY Post; Jan 25, 2010

What do Haiti and Afghanistan have in common, other than the presence of our military? They're both profoundly failed states that we pretend just need the right encouragement.

We told ourselves that in Somalia, too. And we soon may be telling ourselves whopping fibs about Yemen. Or Pakistan.

Failed, failing and outright fake states come in different flavors, from societies in which tribes remain more powerful than struggling governments to those that are gang-plagued and anarchic. There's no single solution to the problem. But we and other successful states typically stand in the way of any solutions.

We just can't think past the Western model of what a state should be. As long as there's one midlevel bureaucrat with a working cellphone in Country X, we insist there's a functioning government.

Far from helping the locals gain better lives, our insistence that they do it our way stands in their way. Congratulating ourselves on cutesy multiculturalism at home, we insist on imposing our government template abroad.

And the "world community" insists that there's no higher value than national independence -- a flag at all costs. That's cold comfort to millions of Haitian earthquake victims, who've been denied competent governance all their lives.

We -- and the locals in failed or failing states -- would be far better off if competent powers engaged in a form of triage, categorizing them into:

States With Hope (such as Liberia), where government as we know it has a chance.

Nonstate Territories (Afghanistan), in which tribes are better suited to govern themselves than a centralized state would be or that are hopeless and must be contained (Somalia).

Chronic Failures With National Identities (Haiti) that want to get better but can't. Such cases require direct government by a consortium of foreign powers.

Our insistence that every state drawn on a map replicate the model of independent, centralized government developed in the West is just a new, seductive form of imperialism.

Consider two current cases:

Afghanistan: Is this mosaic of mutually hostile tribes truly better off being ruled from Kabul? Certainly, central government's a better deal for corrupt officials in the capital. But most Afghans plainly prefer to live under their own tribal leaders and laws. Tribal leaders are responsible to their people; national officials maintained in office by a foreign power aren't.

We're all for organic produce but not for organic government.

The most creative soldiers we have in Afghanistan believe that working with tribes and village councils is our best hope to counter the Taliban. But our distant diplomatic bonzes know better: Kabul must rule -- the welfare and wishes of the people be damned.

Haiti: This heartbreaking country fought passionately for its independence two centuries ago -- then promptly fell prey to self-inflicted savagery, corruption and black-on-black exploitation. Leftist lies be damned, it was never better governed than during the US interventions in the early 20th century.

Even without the catastrophes of an earthquake on top of hurricanes, Haiti lived on handouts, lacking the infrastructure, rudimentary education levels and rule of law that could give it a fighting chance. An impoverished population ravaged its environment. Gangs reigned.

Yet the international community prefers to keep Haiti on life support rather than acknowledge the need for heroic surgery. A long-term, mandated government must come from without. But we'd rather see Haitians suffer than give up our political myths.

Now, as the United States does the heavy lifting again, an irresponsible world complains that the relief effort isn't absolutely perfect. (Where, exactly, would the aid situation be without our military? Would the whining French like to take the lead? How about the Venezuelans? Be our guests.)

Even had Haiti's docks, main airport and roads come through the earthquake unscathed, they couldn't have handled the relief effort in the wake of so great a disaster. The people of Haiti aren't suffering just because of the earthquake. That tragedy only exposed pervasive failure -- a misery compounded because successful powers have for so long preferred giving alms to admitting that Haiti can't govern itself.

America's greatest strategic failure in our time is a failure of the imagination. Until we think more creatively about the growing failed-state problem, the suffering -- and the threats -- will only worsen.

Ralph Peters' latest book is "The War After Armageddon

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Here's a moment of clarity for ya, I don't like france and your opinion of that means absolutely nothing.

Certainly your prerogative, but I sometimes (when I am bored) wonder about the PPOT apparent majority's hatred/dislike/contempt for France.

Why?

What did they ever do to you or to your country? Is it that they disagreed with going into Irak? (sounds rather clever, in hindsight). Is it that they have more vacation than you and eat better food? Is it the rumored anti-americanism (largely a myth from my experience)? Why do you care so much?

anyway, back to Haiti I guess...

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Here's a moment of clarity for ya, I don't like france and your opinion of that means absolutely nothing.

Do not feel alone, there are a lot of us here with the same feelings for the country whose freedom we have saved TWICE in the last 100 years...

[ODDJOB UNO]

and DONT EVER FERGIT THAT "MONTE"(montgomery) WAS THE GREATEST GENERAL EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD AND SAVED FRANCE! and operation market garden was a COMPLETE SUCCESS!



WTF..................did i just say that?

[Stuart993]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

French culture is on the line.

France has culture?

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Stuart993

France has culture?

Only in their cheese!

[MattKellett]

Damn, all you Americans are starting to piss me off, now with your hatred of the French!

I thought that was something us Brits were leading the world in and now I find yet again you're taking over from us. Can't you just let us be leaders in one thing, just one, is it too much to ask?


Well at least we still make the best Stilton cheese, try taking that away from us, I dare you