Birth of a spoon... - Page 2

MotoSook · 12:52 AM

I finally got some parts in. I hunted for a smooth-flat main spring housing with a magwell to only find one, Smith and Alexander. I talked to a nice lady on Monday afternoon, and Thursday it was at the house. It showed up the same day my Ed Brown memory grip safety did.

Oh joy! ... no so fast hot rod.

The pin hole for the safety is drilled at an angle, and it causes the grip safety to cock itself against the frame. The S&A magwell-MSH isn't flush with the frame like I thought it would be. As a matter of fact it's not even symmetric side to side.

I called the nice lady at S&A, and she confirmed what I was thinking. The part was casted with extra meat to it so folks can checker it, dimple it, etc. Not good for me as I only want to polish it. I'd have to take 1/8" or so of material off the back of the MSH. I'm not sure I want to do this to a $89 piece without a mill. So I'm debating whether to send it back and keep hunting. I noticed that Fusion is coming out with a 2-piece flat-smooth MSH-magwell. I haven't confirmed yet if it'll be flush with the frame. I like the 1-piece aspect of the S&A, but I may have to go with the 2-piece. My Spingfield has a 2-piece magwell-MSH setup, and it's pretty solid so it may not be a major issue. I also like the fact that the magwell goes all the way back to under the MSH. The 2-piece design has the magwell stop short.

As for the safety pin holes. I think I'm going to have to send the frame back. There is no way I can make this work without a loose pin or a really loose grip safety. I'm going to need a new frame, or they'll have to weld it up and remachine it. I'm pretty disappointed as the rest of the frame is just great. Recall, this is one that was custom cut to match my commander slide, so I don't know what's going to happen. I can only hope for the best.

Below you can see the problem with the holes and how it causes the grip safety to be cocked (the is the best I can photograph in the light I have here, but it's a pretty accurate representation of how the grip safety sits on the frame with the pin just starting to go through the right side hole. The pin won't go through at all right now with the grip safety installed (ETA: I'm using the hammer pin to test fit the grip safety. The hammer pin slides through the safety holes effortlessly without the grip safety and it just about falls out on it's own if let it). The grip safety and frame actually fit nicely together without the pin. I'll need to file some edges on the grip safety and smooth the frame at the transitions, but the problem isn't the grip safety fitment.

(ETA: When measured from the TS hole to the MSH pin hole on each side, the left side measures 3.246" and the right side 3.257". These are not pin bore center to pin bore center, but bore edge to bore edge. The second set of numbers agree with the first set. My measurement uncertainty is +/- 0.0005. )

(the arrow shows less meat on the left side under the hole, and the 0.115" is between the hole and the frame just above the hole)

(the arrow shows more meat on the right side side under the hole, and the 0.104" is between the hole and the frame just above the hole)

One other thing, the firing pin hole is too small! I think it was drilled for a 9mm firing pin as my 0.0895" Ed Brown Hardcore pin won't go all the way in.

I was so looking forward to making some progress this weekend.

tangerine911S · 02-28-2010, 12:35 PM

I forget who, but either Caspian or Fusion mills their all their slides for .38 super firing pins IIRC. I think it may be Caspian though...

edit: just checked. Its Caspian. You may have to send it back or could you use a firing pin that fits??

MotoSook · 02-28-2010, 07:38 PM

I recall reading that some of the slides in a kit come with a 9mm/38super pin hole size. I discussed firing pins with Bob at Fusion a week ago, in particular his .45 pin size being slightly smaller than others, and he said I could use any of the .45 pins. So I didn't think twice of it. He sent me an e-mail this morning that I should be using the 9mm pin in my slide as all his custom slides use 9mm/38super pins to better handle the pressure. This is good news. I don't have to send the slide back....and he e-mailed I should try another brand of grip safety and check the grip safety for warpage

. I'm going to confirm my measurements again before I order another grip safety.

MotoSook · 02:10 PM

Update:

Manufacturing in America...or that which is accepted by American companies is less than ideal. I am pretty disapointed with the wide range of tolerances of the parts I've gotten during this build. I've used parts from various manufacturers during this process, so as not to single out Fusion. I think Fusion gets a lot of their small parts from other companies, or as it is in a lot of other industries, they share suppliers and private label.

Anyhow, I've had fun ordering parts to only get parts I return, because the machining was so terrible I would not try to make it work. If this is the kind of manufacturing we've come to expect in American, I can't blame work going overseas. At least the overseas stuff is cheaper....for the same quality!

Now I know why custom spoons cost so much...because there is so many out of spec parts that the smiths have to work with.

Fusion for their part did a great job machining the frame and slide. There is just one slightly out of spec pin hole, but with the lack of tight tolerances of some parts, it's relatively pretty damn good.

Anyhow, I'm still waiting on a replacement magwell fro Smith & Alexander, but I'm using the 2-piece magwell MSH from Fusion for now. You'll notice the spoon is missing the magwell. It wouldn't fit without me cutting the grip of the frame shorter as the magwell prevents the MSH from going up high enough in the frame to insert the pin! I could modify the magwell, but then the opening would be worst than it is (it's too wide now and blending is not going to give me the result I want). So I'm waiting on the 1-piece magwell-MSH to replacing the non-assymetrically machined one I received. With the S&A part, there's enough material that I can blend the magwell to the frame. The S&A fit better, but the hole in it was not perpendicular to the axis of the MSH....

I could go on about every part I've handled.

So! The Alumagrip should be here this week. I hope it's a good piece. I custom configured it, so I don't want to have to deal with poor machining. The things left to do (not in any particular order): choose and fit sights, do a trigger job, make the grip safety fit better (the one on there is a Fusion (STI?) but I also have an Ed Brown that looks better but will need more fitting to the frame at the tangs), fit new MSH-magwell, some minor frame contouring to blend the machined surfaces better, bevel the muzzle end of the slide and frame, bevel the bottom of the slide and send out for coating.

I thing I'm going with the 10-8 rear sight with a Trijicon front. I should get my sear jig and Arkansas stones this week, but the trigger actually feels decent now. I have to adjust the weight, but I'm going to do that when the sear and hammer get tuned.

I spent hours getting to this point combing through Kuhnhausen's shop manuals, reading old posts on 911forum.com and studing other people's work so I don't repeat their errors and pick up useful tips from the pros.

I'm still learning, but the process is not as difficult as I thought it would be...but I did a lot of research before I fitted the first part.

So here it is...so far.

MotoSook · 03-14-2010, 01:25 PM

A few more pix:

m21sniper · 03-15-2010, 10:48 AM

Souk one way to deal with your out of spec parts problem is to only order quality oversized parts from the -same- manufacturer.

All of them.

Say Wilsons, or Clark, or Les Bauer. When you mix and match "Drop in" parts you create a lot of tolerance issues, as you're seeing.

Geronimo '74 · 03-15-2010, 11:12 AM

Soukus,

Looking REALLY nice!
You guys give me an itch I'd like to scratch. (yeah Snipe, you're the other one, with that gorgeous P7)

MotoSook · 02:01 PM

Quote:

one way to deal with your out of spec parts problem is to only order quality oversized parts from the -same- manufacturer.

Couldn't agree with you more, except this doesn't seem to hold true for the 1911 market! I've ordered parts from high quality brands that specialize in 1911, and the same part ordered different weeks from the same brand are not near the level of quality (or tolerance) I would expect. Maybe I'm being too critical, but precision parts are suppose to be that...Fit and finish are one thing, but there are also some parts from top tier brands that have an uncomfortable number of failure.

The reality is that not all of the "custom brands" produce every part in house. I shouldn't be surprised by this (pretty common with other types of spoons), but then I'm not talking about parts for a $350 spoon.

Even for factory spoons, I read about too many failures and malfunctions. Not just a few threads here or there. I went "all in" with this as I usually do with new mechanical challenges. So I did a lot of studying. I am surprised. Like I said before, I now know why a custom spoon costs so much...and shame on the manufacturers (some of them and some of the time...) for turning out poor quality parts and factory spoons.

Anyhow, the Alumagrips showed up today along with the sear block...so I should be able to test fire in the next week or so, schedule allowing. The grips - look great! They fit perfectly and since they are the slim version, they make for a very flat spoon. Pictures when the spoon is back from being coated.

The Geronimo will really have an itch.

m21sniper · 02:41 PM

Are you using drop in or "gunsmith only" parts? Gunsmith only parts are oversized and require custom fitting and are therefore much, much tighter than one size fits all drop in parts.

Of course the flip side is that it takes MUCH longer to fit them, hence the huge $ of custom guns. If you have a file and dremel you can do them yourself as long as you're careful.

Gunsmithing is something i have always regretted not getting into. I've always been pretty good at troubleshooting and dis-reassembling all the guns in the family. I've been the designated gun smith in my clan for about 20 years. LOL

I agree with you about factory guns. My kel tec comes with a lifetime warranty, but it needs a life time warranty. Some of the parts are very poorly fitted and made of questionable material.

True to their word though, their lifetime warranty is fantastic. I Called them the other day and said, "My mag is popping out 2-3 times a day, i need a new mag spring."

Guy asked me for my address and said, "It's going in the mail right now." They even included a new mag button too.

Not being satisfied with the pressure required to eject the mag even after the new spring was installed, i put my dremel to the mag release button and shaved it down totally flush with the frame. Now to get the mag out i have to put my finger nail right on the button and press down inside the frame to eject it.

The idea of pulling my pistol in an emergency and having a 1 shoot .32 auto freaked me out big time. That problem is 100% corrected now. I love my dremel.

Have you ever shot a 1911 with a short trigger? I LOVE the short trigger. For me it's just so much more natural.

MotoSook · 03-15-2010, 02:48 PM

The only "drop in" part I've tried are the grip safeties which should have been machined to match my .250" frame tang radius. The GS were indeed machined for 0.250" radius, but I know most do need fitting and shaping. I'm not expecting a perfect fit, but when the parts are not near symmetric nor the holes drilled straight (perpendicular to action) it's difficult to even start with. By the time I got the pin holes to align I'd end up with parts that are so loose or out of shape it would be pointless. Even some of the respected smiths who posts on the forums will tell you to steer clear of some of the top tier parts for the reasons I discovered. *sigh*

I've purchase several hundreds of dollars worth of tools (I'm a tool whore - enough files to make medical devices with, part/function specific tools, etc), so I have been custom fitting the parts I use. I only use the Dremel to rough cut or shape, then the rest is hours of filing, test fitting and polishing. Very relaxing and easy to lose track of time.

m21sniper · 03-15-2010, 02:54 PM

It would be helpful if you let us know what parts you got that were trash so we can learn from your troubles.

I put the sandpaper and polishing cloth to pretty much every pistol i've ever owned.

I did the ejection port on my P32 and P7 and got them looking like mirrors. Likewise for the feed ramps. Kel Tecs really benefit from a good polish of the action, as they're typically very poorly fitted weapons from the factory.

MotoSook · 03:07 PM

Quote:

Not being satisfied with the pressure required to eject the mag even after the new spring was installed, i put my dremel to the mag release button and shaved it down totally flush with the frame. Now to get the mag out i have to put my finger nail right on the button and press down inside the frame to eject it.

Lots of KT owners drop the mag after the first shot when their thumb hits the mag release. I had to train myself to hold mine differently...but I like your solution.

Quote:

Have you ever shot a 1911 with a short trigger?

No, but the trigger I have is about as short as I want to go unless I use an arched mainspring housing. My hand is large enough that my trigger finger wouldn't sit right on the trigger if it were any shorter with the flat MSH and slim grips. I can adjust the take-up to fine tune.

MotoSook · 03-15-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Kel Tecs really benefit from a good polish of the action, as they're typically very poorly fitted weapons from the factory.

My discussion with the factory tech support resulted in them basically saying "we make them loose because we want them to work everytime." Kinda like the GI level of fit. OK, but why does everything else kinda suck

They are what they are for the price.

m21sniper · 03-15-2010, 03:13 PM

It's not loose fit so much as irregular fit that is the primary problem with Kel Tecs.

Once you give them the "fluff and buff" they are quite reliable and actually stunningly accurate little guns. I can shoot 1.5" groups at 7 yds with mine using my CT laser. That's freakishly accurate for a pocket pistol IMO.

MotoSook · 03-15-2010, 03:31 PM

Yep..right..irregularities..the other stuff that sucks

Like I said, for the price it is a good thing to have...

I did fluff mine, and it is a reliably spoon. Never had any problems with it 'cept the extractor screw kept coming loose. Haven't gotten around to loctite it since its just a range toy (for those of us in a non-CCW state.)

m21sniper · 03:46 PM

My P32 is my constant daily companion, so i need it to be 100% (i have a first gen gun with the old style but more trouble free extractor).

With the full sized 10rd(+1) mag you can really grip the pistol well and shoot it very accurately, and FAST. Az is going to load me some max pressure Gold Dots (load data goes up to about 1200fps IIRC) once i send him the stuff.

It's no .45, but it's always with me. Even if i'm wearing shorts or sweats it's no problem to slip it right into my front pocket. In fact i carry the P7 so infrequently that i just ordered a high quality Laserlyte universal triggerguard laser for it (meaning it will no longer fit any of my holsters), it's getting relegated to the night stand/when zombies attack role.

Anyway, look forward to your next 1911 build update.

Here's my daily carry rig:

ODDJOB UNO · ODDJOB UNO's Garage

heres a thought after meeting my HK guru ralph smith of RDTS(red dog target supplies) at fed ex the other day.

we had conversation re: NP3(teflon) vs his MOLY kote. the reason why he likes moly is under FULL AUTO fire there is no wear vs. NP3. ie. the mil thickness is greater when applied and lasts longer under severe obnoxious military use.

hell i dont have to worry about full auto. and its $250 bucks in black vs robars $325 bucks for their NP3 which doesnt match my HK black.

so im gonna try his moly kote finish on my HK-91 which i have had since i was around 21 or so and has a few abrasions from use.

what the hell? if its good enough for the miltary................its good enough for me shooting deer and elk and zombeez!

check out RDTS.com for more info.

MotoSook · 03-15-2010, 04:01 PM

UNO - if you want black, why not Ion Bond DLC or Melonite?

I keep going back and forth between melonite and Ion Bond. I can't find a single source technical comparision between the two. $165 for Ion Bond (slide and frame) versus $200 for melonite. I don't care so much about the price, I just want something that's going to last longest without compromise....in black.

ODDJOB UNO · ODDJOB UNO's Garage

the last thing i want to do is ship spoons. GIANT PITA for me living where i do. i have to go all the way down town to fedex or ups store to legally ship firearms.

ralph lives close by and i just call him and we meet in dark alley somewhere and he picks up spoon and does his magic and then he calls me and we meet in an even darker alley somewhere and i give him cash and i get my spoon back.

hahahahaha

no ralph does actually live very close and we do meet in a parking lot close to both of our homes. he has done a bunch of work for me on my other hk spoons and he is after my VIRGINAL HK-94(i aint selling it). why? so he can legally make a MP-5 out of my HK-94 and make insane money off of it. cuz hes an FFL.

robar is all of about 20 minutes away from me.

m21sniper · 03-15-2010, 04:12 PM

I'm pretty sure i'm going to go with Ford's Black nickel with high polished hard chrome accents when i get my P7 finished.

It should be breathtaking.

Now that i know i won't be carrying my P7 on any kind of a regular basis i don't have to worry about mussing up a beautiful finish, so i'm going to go all out on the finish i get.