VW Vanagon and Eurovan thread:
 

I know that Vanagons have been discussed here in the past but can't remember if Eurovans have. Both of these vans have a pretty much unrivaled interior layout with the easy walk-through from the front, booth seating w/ table and fold-out bed. I'm not talking about Westies, which I know have the same layout, rather the Eurovan MV and Vanagon Wolfsburg.

I'm aware of the mechanical issues and lack of power if Vanagons, how about early (5 cylinder) Eurovans? Anyone had one? How was power and fuel mileage? How about the later ones w/ VR6? Same questions. Thanks a lot in advance. :cool:

IIRC, John Cramer used to tow his 911 to the track using a Eurovan with the VR6.

I had a 93 Eurovan, bought used in 96 when I went into the antique clock business. Man, did that thing hold some cargo! It was comfortable, good ride, and I thought the 5 cylinder was relatively peppy for what it was pulling. I wish I still had that thing ....

Drove it for about 5 years, then moved, and traded it in for a Passat wagon. No mechanical problems in that time period.

Just get the Vanagon and put a Subaru in it, very good power and reliability.

What are you thinking Denis? :D

A lot of vanagon fans, myself included, don't really like the eurovan. Eurovans are more modern, more powerful, and more comfortable. (Or so I here. I've never been in one.) But they are too much like an ordinary minivan.

Probably the biggest complaint we have about them - and I think you can appreciate this - is that the engine in a eurovan is at the wrong end of the car. The vanagon is just more of a "pure" VW.

GoWesty has this write-up, well worth reading.

Model Choice: Are You a Vanagon or Eurovan Person?* - Library Article - GoWesty Camper Products - parts supplier for VW Vanagon, Eurovan, and Bus

I just Googled some HP/towing info:

# 2.5-liter, five-cylinder Broad Torque engine

* Peak horsepower, 109 @ 4,500 RPM
* Peak ft./lbs. torque, 140 @ 2,200 RPM
* Towing capacity, maximum 4,400 lb. braked-trailer

# 2.8-liter, 6-cylinder VR6 engine

* Peak horsepower: 140 @ 4,500 RPM
* Peak Ft/lb. torque: 177 @ 3,200 RPM
* Towing capacity: max. 4,400 lb. braked trailer
* 4-wheel disk anti-lock braking system

I like the idea of a Eurovan as a tow vehicle, but 4400 pounds pulled with 109HP/140FT-LB seems a bit wishful to me :confused: Maybe John will check in with some real-life observations .....

Even a 2.2 Subaru would give you 135 hp, If you didn't want to do the exchange yourself there is a guy in Torrance that does a pretty good job.

Curt, your numbers are for the early VR6. The 2001-2003 VR6 was rated 201 HP. Dunno about torque. I talked about this with John C. a few years back. It's real-life, not wishful stuff, in that he pulled his early race car with AL trailer using a late VR6 Eurovan.

Wasn't thinking of using to tow anything but a light trailer. I read the article on Vanagon vs. Eurovan above and it makes me lean even more towards the Eurovan. I've owned my share of old busses and campers and appreciate the "coolness" but the drivetrains are just too substandard for actual highway use. I include the waterboxer in that. I've never owned a Vanagon but I'm familiar w/ their mechanical shortcomings.

The other thing is that I am not interested in a full camper. Just the standard body w/ *weekender* layout interior. The prices at that "Go Westy" place are just fking bananas. They are on crack and anyone who buys from them is someone I'd like to meet the next time I'm selling something.

I'd love to hear from someone who has owned the later VR6 in terms of reliability, mpg, etc.

GoWesty appears to sell to a class of people with a LOT of disposable income.

The Samba is a bbs for Vanagon owners & some Eurovans. The Vanagon is slower than molasses, tho faster than the old Buses. The Vanagon has 6.5" gnd clearance and the Syncro has 7.5" - it will go places that most camper type vehicles will not, but is expensive and requires a fair amt. of repairs/maintenance.

You can also get a Ford Van with a poptop conversion and they are large enuff to sleep in w/o that.

For a still larger vehicle, the MB based newer Dodge vans are not bad at all.

What exactly are you planning to do with this vehicle?

you can add a turbo to a 5 banger useing stock junkyard parts from older turbo audi
use a low boost wheel to add tork to low+mid range for better drivability without over taxing
the drivetrain with a hi boost hi power setup

I'm not even interested in pop-top VWs, just regular vans w/ the factory layout I described above. (Fold-down seat/bed, booth seating in the middle). Pop-tops are nice when parked but suck even worse on the road with all that extra weight and wind resistance 6+ feet off the ground. Regular vanagons have the aerodynamics of a sail.

I'm leaning completely towards a Eurovan in the future, something like this:

Volkswagen : EuroVan : eBay Motors (item 280486031557 end time Apr-08-10 09:10:46 PDT)

in that case, what is the adv. of the EV over a Ford full size or a nice Honda mini-van or something?

Neither a Ford or a Honda compares in terms of interior layout although I suppose that a conversion van may have a similar deal. I've owned full-sized Ford (and Chevy) vans and they are good for what they're good for but they're a completely different animal. They're a PIA to drive/park in the city compared to minivans, (VWs are minivans), and the fuel mileage sucks to the point that traveling in one would be out of the question, IMO. Just not a good choice for ambling up and down the coast.

Honda makes great minivans but they are built for a different purpose than the VW. They are suburban kid-haulers, not camping vehicles. The VW has the most brilliant seating/floor layout on the planet and they've had it since the '50s in their camper vans. At some point, they started putting it in regular roof vans. (I had a 1971 Westy w/o pop-top that had it). The Vanagon Wolfsburg had it and the Eurovan MV had it. Tint the windows dark and you have the best little vehicle to live in for a week or two on the road. Park it anywhere and go to sleep when you get tired on the road, it just looks like a parked car. Have a cup of tea and check the Pelican bbs on the little coffee table/booth. It's genius. Plus it's German.

A Ford full-sized van is better for a commercial vehicle if you're hauling a lot of weight or towing. Ford has made a TDI (Powerstroke) van for years, that would be an OK choice to convert for a road machine but still not as nice as a VW, IMO. :cool:

Let say the Vanagon is like a 912 . making the Eurovan like a 924. IMO, there is nothing too special about the Euro. they are not bad... just nothing great.

I have a syncro (aWd) Vanagon. Its the best ski vehicle, has great capacity. The upsides to the Euro are that it has less road noise, and is more aero.

-Just don't have a front end collision! You probably need your feet~

N!

Here we go again. Actually, the vanagon is surprisingly well-equipped for a frontal collision. It's nothing like the old buses. In a crash test between a vanagon and an '80s Volvo station wagon, the "driver" of the vanagon was uninjured, while the "driver" of the Volvo was killed instantly.

Just read the following thread for a real-life example.

TheSamba.com :: View topic - Real Life Crash Test

What? 180K on mine w/o issue. 240k on my friend's w/o issue. ....of course, I know a secret. ...changing coolant as specified keeps the galvanic corrosion from happening. -actually you don't have to change the coolant, but rather just add the anti-corrosive brew.

Just replace the coolant every two years with phosphate free, no problem. As specified. I guess I have no brains at all, since I own two right now, and had two others in the past. I may be stupid, but blissfully so.

OK- maybe I'm wrong but I've read HUNDREDS of horror stories about how these vans blew out their head gaskets at low mileage numbers. I'm still not convinced- and I'm not conviced about the safety of these vehicles either. Someone posted on another thread that I talked on that thes have good crash test data. I just need some proof, because I've been told and have read on Consumers Reports that the VW Vanagon is a DANGEROUS vehicle with crash test data that is equibilent to the earlier VW bus.

I drive a Porsche 928 normally. But my second car is a Ford Aerostar, and though it is just a second car, usually just used for work[airport] or picking up plants at a nursery duty...I enjoy driving and owning this 1997 car. It has GREAT air condintioning! It won't do anything fast, but a good Aerostar won't quit and it is REAR WHEEL DRIVE. That means that it can pull my boat out of the water without any drama.

As to galvanic corrosion: Isn't that something that the owners of 2-stroke ouboard motors need to be concerned about?

N!

They did have a problem, not with blown head gaskets, but with blown water jackets in the heads. I'm splitting hairs, but... Anyway, it was a problem, but it happened to cars that were not properly maintained. Of course, this is still VW's problem, as people want a car does that does require require such a level of attention. But the point here is, if you own one, you can avoid the problem if you just pay attention. But don't forget, these are cars that are now twenty years old or older.

That thread that I attached should demonstrate that they are much, much safer than the older buses. The proof is in that thread.

Finally, some of us would be bored in your "no drama" Aerostar. It's not logical, I know, and I can't explain it. It's like driving an old 928 when you can have something newer and more modern.

Denis,

I towed my 2300 pound 911 race car with a Trailex 750 pound trailer for a couple years using a Eurovan GLS. The MV was what I wanted, with the "club" style seating arrangement, but an inexpensive GLS came along.

I loved the van, it had 201 cubic feet of interior volume, which meant you could fit all the stuff you need for the track, toolboxes, folding chairs, etc., in the back without trouble, and I actually camped in the thing a couple times at Lime Rock before I discovered that a good night's sleep before a race can lower your lap times.

Mine had the 201 hp VR6 Motor. Got about 22 mpg single, 11 mpg towing. A couple times I had to pull the car up a 4% grade for about two miles- the van slowed down to 25 MPH during this process and the tacho went to 6000 rpm. For operation in hot-high-humid environments I would not recommend towing with any of the smaller displacement engines.

VW vans are like a cult. . . once you are in the cult it is HARD to get out. Even though I bought this van for a very good price, it had virtually zero liquidity when I went to sell it. . . I had it advertised for four months and got a single bite, discounted it to move. . . and ended up selling it to a guy who was replacing his older four-cylinder Eurovan because it had rusted out. So I was able to break free of the VW van cult but it wasn't easy. . .

The service I received at two shops in the NY Metro area was nearly unrivaled for how terrible it was. Every time I consider buying a Jetta TDI Sportwagen, I think back to what a lousy customer service experience I had with the dealer service departments, and I consider alternative brands. I am not particularly demanding of service departments and they STILL managed to alienate me. . . get yourself a good independent or do the work yourself and you'll be all set.

In summary: I enjoyed my operational experience with the van itself, although compared to alternative tow vehicles it's somewhat underpowered.

Thanks, John. Not looking to tow anything with it, so that part doesn't matter and I do all of my own maintenance.

Knock on wood, my local Vdub dealer has been pretty good to work with.

I wonder if an Audi V6 would bolt into a Eurovan without too much drama. There's at least 300 HP available if that was (reasonably) possible. :D

Normy - the Vanagon met US passenger car safety stds. when it was new - very unusual for a light truck. It has a very strong safety beam structure in the front end and makes an excellent battering ram.

OK - the OP does not want a Ford camper conversion van b/c too large; does not want a mini-van b/c of the space configuration, yet wants more power than a stock Vanagon or early EV - is that right??

2 choices -- EV with VR-6 motor
or a Vanagon with a more powerful engine swap - the fastest is a Subaru 6 cyl SVX - not cheap and who is going to maintain it? IIRC< Smallcar in Seattle will do the swap.

Even if he wanted, it's tough to get a SVX 6 smog legal in SoCal. the easiest is a 2.2 and there are people within a few miles of him that do a good job.

That pretty much sums it up. That "Go Westy" place sells engine kits for squeezing more power out of the standard Vanagon waterboxer but the prices are ridiculous. $7k to get a whopping 125hp?? Golly...

I'd like to know who is buying their *super special* old Vanagon campers for what I would consider sucker prices for a mint early 911S. Crazy.

Agree, ridiculous prices for a small bump in power . . for a frick'n VAN.

Mine is bone stock and does just fine. It is of course really slowed down if hauling 3/4 ton of rock, or taking 5 (or so) adults, and all the ski gear up a mountain pass. Although, I do recall, that when there is snow on the pass, I'm still passing most everyone else up the grade.

GoWesty is for rich people. Their restored vans are the best, most reliable you can buy, but I don't have that kind of money.

Speeder, you should simply test drive a stock vanagon and a eurovan. See which you like, and if you can handle the low power of the vanagon. Drive them at highway speed, of course, but also make sure you tackle a hill. That's the only time I wish I had more power. Sometimes I think I should try driving a eurovan and see how I like it.

Since you are a DIYer, you may prefer the vanagon. They're real easy to work on, and there are a lot of cool upgrades.

I worked at a VW dealer when the late '80s Vanagon was new so I know how they drive. They are fine, if a little slow, it's the durability/reliability that I'm worried about. Going over the Rockies w/ some gear on board seems to find the weak link in a drivetrain and I've been 1000 miles from home with a blown-up VW van before. Never again...

They are tough, tough tough.

Even with the abuse so many owners give them there are still many on the road. ..two-plus decades later.

Island, your PM box is full...I have a question.

rumor is that Tom Hanks bought one

sounds like a 2.2L Sube is what he needs to do or just let the original puny motor do its stuff

I do have a friend with a total smog leagle 91 Vanagon with a 250hp SVX in it, automatic with a solid well built trans. Has the BAR sticker in the door. 16" wheels, all the good shocks and springs, big brakes. He is building another right now with a 2.5 Subaru and might sell the one with the six. He thinks it's a little more power than he needs.

Will drive my 1996 Multivan until it dies....love it!
 

Guys,

I have no idea how the Australian delivered T4 Transporters, Caravelles etc compare with what you got over there....but I hope my experiences are of some use to you ;).

My van was imported as a 2.5L Transporter and then converted by Trakka here to Multivan specs (the Multivan was not delivered into Aus at the time).Cost the same new as an optioned Caravelle (8 seat people mover).

Lots of features including 2 removable seats to increase the load space to enormous ;), rear seat converts to a bed, a pullout table etc...

Mine is not standard (never owned a standard car in my life lol)...we've done a few little things along the way.

"Bertha-the-wonder-van" runs Konis and Eibachs all round; sits on 7" x 15" rims with good rubber. I chuck 'Bertha' round a lot...and she handles incredibly well. Changing springs and shocks and using different alignment settings made a world of difference; it handled reasonably well originally anyway but these upgrades mean I can actually entice a bit of power oversteer when pushing hard in a corner; not bad in a front wheel drive ;). We have advisory speed limits on most corners of country roads...I can take most corners in 'Bertha' comfortably at well over the suggested limit.

Performance - issues I have. For reference 'Bertha' has an Audi 5 cylinder engine and 5 speed manual gearbox. First is lack of torque at lower revs. Once you're on the cam (about 3200revs) totally different story. Lots of compression (over 210lbs per cylinder), so keeping the revs up if you want to go hard or pull up a big hill is the way to go. Second is the engine gets 'breathless' approaching redline. Once you're pulling over 5000rpm she sometimes drops off the performance a little. Often depends on the weather - cool, crisp, good horsepower weather and she just goes to redline!

Remarkably tractable just driving around though; I can drive around town in 4th at 50-60kph without a problem.

Acceleration - once out of first this thing is pretty amazing. Great on the highway too. For a big heavy brick that is often loaded up she does a great job.

Towing....AMAZING! We have a large tandem trailer that weighs over a ton by itself...then we load that trailer with another ton or two...and stick it behind 'Bertha'...I have had to do this many times...I am kind to the gearbox and just let 'Bertha' build up her speed without too much stress. The whole rig will cruise at 120-130kph on the open road...just have to plan ahead for the hills ;).

'Bertha' has well over 200,000kms clocked up now....compression is still great; still on the original clutch :eek: and the gearbox is barely noisy. She has a weep from the rear main seal which we will get around to fixing; has never broken down other than a small issue with the transponder for the management system not picking up the electronics in the ignition key ($40 fix). We over-maintain her (gets a service every 5000kms) but we are in the position to do that. It's our family hauler, goods carrier, runaround etc. We are totally dependent on her!

FWIW - I only use the best of fuels - always. I have a 20km each way drive to get BP Ultimate and I do it. Anything else and even with the smart management system the engine complains. We run the best oils and fluids money can buy in her as well. All this has paid big dividends...

Oh yeah....'Bertha' is a wet track hillclimb star too :D! Had a lot of fun showing up the lighter, quicker, faster cars a while ago at our local hillclimb track...it was wet, so I had the advantage ;)...started out as a laugh; but a lot of the guys want me to seriously enter her if we can find a class to suit...I'll do it - as long as it's wet :D

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1270518580.jpg

:D:rolleyes::eek: Haunted Hills (hillclimb track) last year...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1270518778.jpg

2006 - kids are much bigger now (sob)...we were on our way back from hiking up to some waterfalls...40kms of logging tracks (horrible and rutty)...I take 'Bertha' almost anywhere ;).

If I lived in Australia I'd get a T5 4X4 Trakkadu camper. Alas, you can't even ship one to the U.S.

Here goes...I'm going OT on this thread...sorry :rolleyes:

Hey Charlie!

Pics from last year's day of the Volkswagen down here...check out the Trakkadu :)...and the new black Transporter...if that thing was a Multivan Mike would have keeled over as I would have bought the thing on the spot :D. Sad; but I was running after that black thing with my tongue hanging out....droooooool :D.

I had my van parked in the pavilion with the trailer hitched on the back as we took some stuff along to sell (great day - came back with a much lighter load and made a lot of people happy). I could have sold my 'Bertha' ten times over that day...but I'm happy with the old girl; don't need a new one (unless it was that black thing in Multivan format :D)....

DOTV2009 celebrated 50 years of the Kombi...it was truly a terrific day with lots of great cars and people....we'll be going again this year I hope as it was a fun day.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1270525996.jpg

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